This is a fairly thin sockpuppet as I’ve made similar remarks elsewhere, but:
I find posts like this (or similar discussions places like metafilter) depressing because I’m left with the feeling there’s no positive option.
I read posts by women, complaining about various male behaviour. Obviously I don’t want to be creepy and Worse Than Hitler(tm), so I try to determine what I should be doing.
So many things are apparently bad that I am left with the conclusion that merely by existing I am offensive to women, and there is no action I can take to improve the situation.
I can see other comments talking about this viewpoint as an undesirable failure mode.
disclaimer: I don’t particularly claim to be right or rational here. This is actually a toned down version of my original thoughts.
So obviously I recognize this view point (I’m one of those who called it an undesirable failure mode). But I actually am really perplexed by how someone could think this is the only option. I probably have a good bit of social and looks privilege[1] so maybe I just can’t see it. Why can’t you just worry a little less about coming off as creepy, smile at people and if they smile back go and say hello? Cultivate confidence, or fake it. Tell jokes. Just about everyone here is really smart and has interesting things to say. You don’t have to spend ten years studying pick-up artistry to be able to meet women through friends and activities. Nice guys actually have sex all the time—just maybe not with anyone they want or at the frequency they desire. Lots of women will find something wrong with you. Which is totally fine. Most women love flirting. I mean try not to do it when you’re a stranger with zero shot and you’re locked in an elevator with them, dressed in a trenchcoat and your only facial hair is that whisp of a mustache you didn’t shave. But “not being creepy” shouldn’t even be the tenth thing on your mind when you’re meeting a woman unless someone has told you you have a problem.
[1] Relative to the LW median anyway. I couldn’t come up with a way of saying this that didn’t sound like a brag.
Well, this is the naive theory I had before exposure to these posts.
However I have learnt that ineptly flirting is very bad and makes you worse than Hitler, incompetence is no excuse, etc. So I can’t go out and practice dating skills.
If I do want to practice dating skills, that makes me a PUA and worse than Hitler.
Obviously now, having read about elevatorgate, I am less likely to try to flirt with women in elevators, but I would totally expect that I would do something equally as bad in a non-elevator-based situation. So, Hitler.
Therefore I decide to give up on the whole thing as a bad job. But now I’m concealing sexual attraction, which comments on this post have established is definitely creepy.
So then I hypothetically decide to avoid women entirely, we haven’t actually covered this one but I’m pretty sure it would be considered misogynistic.
Short of someone inventing a telepathy pill, I have no options, and I feel sure if someone did invent a telepathy pill, there would be people explaining why it made you Hitler.
A lot of the creepiness stuff comes from online social justice people. Sadly, there is a lot of nastiness in the social justice area of the internet (See this article). I am female and a feminist and I’ve been accused of being Worse Than Hitler on occasion. That doesn’t mean there’s no value in the social justice movement, so I still read blogs, but I discard a lot of it!
Well, some people want to help others, but some people simply enjoy screaming at others… and screaming at someone from a position of a good person (member of the tribe of everything good) feels so deliciously righteous.
Should we cynically assume that social justice is not about social justice, but about feeling superior to outsiders? For some people this seems correct.
A lot of the creepiness stuff comes from online social justice people.
This statement is quite spot on, and in more ways than you realize. There must be something about this particular form of self-styled “social” and “political” engagement (it is of course nothing of the sort) that makes folks especially likely to exhibit Great Internet F****ad behavior. Thank goodness it’s all harmless Internet fun of no consequence for the real world—but if that wasn’t the case I would be seriously creeped out.
Obviously now, having read about elevatorgate, I am less likely to try to flirt with women in elevators, but I would totally expect that I would do something equally as bad in a non-elevator-based situation.
The general lesson of the elevatorgate story is to flirt in environments where flirting is expected social behavior.
Nightclubs are a good example.
As a nerd Salsa or Tango dancing are good choices. Those places have fairly straightforward rules that allow you to interact with the opposing sex.
Pushing the envelope always makes people uncomfortable.
That’s an interesting belief to have. I don’t think that it’s either helpful or true.
Yesterday I asked a guy who’s very touchy feely with everyone about how he know when it’s okay to touch girls. He said something along the lines of: “You have to touch people to make them comfortable. I listen to my intuition.”
There are various PUA people who can go and kiss a girl in a club with whom they didn’t interact before. The girl enjoys the kiss and it doesn’t make her uncomfortable.
I would classify actions like that as “pushing the envelope”. At the same time a girl who’s uncomfortable just won’t go along with the kiss.
I would expect that consensual strong physical escalation that ignores the social rules of the place in which it happens nearly always needed a feeling of comfort to happen.
But yes, for every behaviour however unobtrusive you can find a woman complaining about it. And it’s true that is unethical not to care about that discomfort, but if you care too much, you’re driven to become an asexual social bureaucrat. It’s also true that if you care too little, you’re driven to become a rapist.
Within these two extremes, there are all kinds of women: there are those who prefer rapist (and will get raped), those who prefer asexual social bureaucrat (and will never get approached) and everything in between.
The point is that you cannot know a priori which category the woman you’re interested in fits, there’s simply no standard signal to tell them apart. That’s why you should act as if you were exploring a totally different terrain every time: err on the side of boldness, calibrate along the way and leave a line of retreat.
However I have learnt that ineptly flirting is very bad and makes you worse than Hitler, incompetence is no excuse, etc. So I can’t go out and practice dating skills.
No one said this.
If I do want to practice dating skills, that makes me a PUA
No it doesn’t.
and worse than Hitler.
Being a PUA does not make you this.
But now I’m concealing sexual attraction, which comments on this post have established is definitely creepy.
There is a difference between not concealing sexual attraction and shouting it. But anyway, being creepy does not make you Hitler. It doesn’t even make you a bad person. You are not morally obligated to make people comfortable in all circumstances. Making people uncomfortable for no reason is kind of a dick move. And making people uncomfortable is not going to lead to friends or girlfriends—so if you have been specifically told that you are doing something creepy then it is a good idea to find out what it was and stop it. But that’s it.
Seriously. I can see how the feminist rhetoric about creepiness overstates the issue, overgeneralizes and over-sensitizes some and I made those criticisms in this thread. But they’re not nearly as dramatic about it as you’re being. Have you ever talked to a woman about this who isn’t preaching about it on the internet or enrolled as a women’s studies major?
Edit:
Obviously now, having read about elevatorgate, I am less likely to try to flirt with women in elevators, but I would totally expect that I would do something equally as bad in a non-elevator-based situation. So, Hitler.
Flirting with women in elevators is totally fine. Asking them back to your room late at night, when you haven’t met and have no chance is a little creepy. Neither make you Hitler (or any less hyperbolic bad thing).
I’m sorry you feel that way.I reread and the only bit I thought unfair is the “don’t ask me for my phone number bit.” I thought the submitter was reasonable with the other things she mentioned, but maybe that’s my failure. What about this post caused you to worry?
I will try to fill in a fuller response later, but I should clarify that a) it’s a general feeling rather than being tied to any specific comment, b) on this post I’m responding more to the comments than the submitter.
This is a fairly thin sockpuppet as I’ve made similar remarks elsewhere, but:
I find posts like this (or similar discussions places like metafilter) depressing because I’m left with the feeling there’s no positive option.
I read posts by women, complaining about various male behaviour. Obviously I don’t want to be creepy and Worse Than Hitler(tm), so I try to determine what I should be doing.
So many things are apparently bad that I am left with the conclusion that merely by existing I am offensive to women, and there is no action I can take to improve the situation.
I can see other comments talking about this viewpoint as an undesirable failure mode.
disclaimer: I don’t particularly claim to be right or rational here. This is actually a toned down version of my original thoughts.
So obviously I recognize this view point (I’m one of those who called it an undesirable failure mode). But I actually am really perplexed by how someone could think this is the only option. I probably have a good bit of social and looks privilege[1] so maybe I just can’t see it. Why can’t you just worry a little less about coming off as creepy, smile at people and if they smile back go and say hello? Cultivate confidence, or fake it. Tell jokes. Just about everyone here is really smart and has interesting things to say. You don’t have to spend ten years studying pick-up artistry to be able to meet women through friends and activities. Nice guys actually have sex all the time—just maybe not with anyone they want or at the frequency they desire. Lots of women will find something wrong with you. Which is totally fine. Most women love flirting. I mean try not to do it when you’re a stranger with zero shot and you’re locked in an elevator with them, dressed in a trenchcoat and your only facial hair is that whisp of a mustache you didn’t shave. But “not being creepy” shouldn’t even be the tenth thing on your mind when you’re meeting a woman unless someone has told you you have a problem.
[1] Relative to the LW median anyway. I couldn’t come up with a way of saying this that didn’t sound like a brag.
Well, this is the naive theory I had before exposure to these posts.
However I have learnt that ineptly flirting is very bad and makes you worse than Hitler, incompetence is no excuse, etc. So I can’t go out and practice dating skills.
If I do want to practice dating skills, that makes me a PUA and worse than Hitler.
Obviously now, having read about elevatorgate, I am less likely to try to flirt with women in elevators, but I would totally expect that I would do something equally as bad in a non-elevator-based situation. So, Hitler.
Therefore I decide to give up on the whole thing as a bad job. But now I’m concealing sexual attraction, which comments on this post have established is definitely creepy.
So then I hypothetically decide to avoid women entirely, we haven’t actually covered this one but I’m pretty sure it would be considered misogynistic.
Short of someone inventing a telepathy pill, I have no options, and I feel sure if someone did invent a telepathy pill, there would be people explaining why it made you Hitler.
A lot of the creepiness stuff comes from online social justice people. Sadly, there is a lot of nastiness in the social justice area of the internet (See this article). I am female and a feminist and I’ve been accused of being Worse Than Hitler on occasion. That doesn’t mean there’s no value in the social justice movement, so I still read blogs, but I discard a lot of it!
Well, some people want to help others, but some people simply enjoy screaming at others… and screaming at someone from a position of a good person (member of the tribe of everything good) feels so deliciously righteous.
Should we cynically assume that social justice is not about social justice, but about feeling superior to outsiders? For some people this seems correct.
This statement is quite spot on, and in more ways than you realize. There must be something about this particular form of self-styled “social” and “political” engagement (it is of course nothing of the sort) that makes folks especially likely to exhibit Great Internet F****ad behavior. Thank goodness it’s all harmless Internet fun of no consequence for the real world—but if that wasn’t the case I would be seriously creeped out.
How about stop having your norms dictated by unreasonable demands that are likely to be simply signaling, status games, or go-team exercise?
The general lesson of the elevatorgate story is to flirt in environments where flirting is expected social behavior. Nightclubs are a good example. As a nerd Salsa or Tango dancing are good choices. Those places have fairly straightforward rules that allow you to interact with the opposing sex.
If everyone limited flirting to places where it was considered socially acceptable, we’d still be going on chaperoned dates.
That’s not what I advocate. I advocate that people who have trouble with it practice in enviroment where it’s socially acceptable.
Which behaviors are socially acceptable in which environments changes with time, largely as people push the envelope or otherwise ignore the rules.
It pays to learn the rules before you break them.
Specifically you should be able to perceive when a woman is uncomfortable before try to push the envelope and ignore the rules.
Sometimes, other times it’s easier if you don’t know the rules you don’t know what they are.
Pushing the envelope always makes people uncomfortable.
That’s an interesting belief to have. I don’t think that it’s either helpful or true. Yesterday I asked a guy who’s very touchy feely with everyone about how he know when it’s okay to touch girls. He said something along the lines of: “You have to touch people to make them comfortable. I listen to my intuition.”
There are various PUA people who can go and kiss a girl in a club with whom they didn’t interact before. The girl enjoys the kiss and it doesn’t make her uncomfortable. I would classify actions like that as “pushing the envelope”. At the same time a girl who’s uncomfortable just won’t go along with the kiss.
I would expect that consensual strong physical escalation that ignores the social rules of the place in which it happens nearly always needed a feeling of comfort to happen.
That made me laugh pretty hard!
But yes, for every behaviour however unobtrusive you can find a woman complaining about it. And it’s true that is unethical not to care about that discomfort, but if you care too much, you’re driven to become an asexual social bureaucrat. It’s also true that if you care too little, you’re driven to become a rapist.
Within these two extremes, there are all kinds of women: there are those who prefer rapist (and will get raped), those who prefer asexual social bureaucrat (and will never get approached) and everything in between.
The point is that you cannot know a priori which category the woman you’re interested in fits, there’s simply no standard signal to tell them apart.
That’s why you should act as if you were exploring a totally different terrain every time: err on the side of boldness, calibrate along the way and leave a line of retreat.
Give a serious consideration to becoming more gay. Definitely better than Hitler. Hey, it worked for Orphan_Wilde.
According to the Law, if someone compares you to Hitler it’s them who lose.
No one said this.
No it doesn’t.
Being a PUA does not make you this.
There is a difference between not concealing sexual attraction and shouting it. But anyway, being creepy does not make you Hitler. It doesn’t even make you a bad person. You are not morally obligated to make people comfortable in all circumstances. Making people uncomfortable for no reason is kind of a dick move. And making people uncomfortable is not going to lead to friends or girlfriends—so if you have been specifically told that you are doing something creepy then it is a good idea to find out what it was and stop it. But that’s it.
Seriously. I can see how the feminist rhetoric about creepiness overstates the issue, overgeneralizes and over-sensitizes some and I made those criticisms in this thread. But they’re not nearly as dramatic about it as you’re being. Have you ever talked to a woman about this who isn’t preaching about it on the internet or enrolled as a women’s studies major?
Edit:
Flirting with women in elevators is totally fine. Asking them back to your room late at night, when you haven’t met and have no chance is a little creepy. Neither make you Hitler (or any less hyperbolic bad thing).
I’m sorry you feel that way.I reread and the only bit I thought unfair is the “don’t ask me for my phone number bit.” I thought the submitter was reasonable with the other things she mentioned, but maybe that’s my failure. What about this post caused you to worry?
I will try to fill in a fuller response later, but I should clarify that a) it’s a general feeling rather than being tied to any specific comment, b) on this post I’m responding more to the comments than the submitter.