Isn’t it the case that no non-human animal has ever been able to speak a language, even if we’ve tried to raise it as a human? (And that we have in fact tried this with chimps?) If that’s true, why isn’t that the end of the conversation? This is what’s always confused me about this debate. It seems like everyone is ignoring the slam-dunk evidence that’s right there.
Well, that might be true of human language—though I’m not sure about the case of sign language for apes in captivity. Part of the problem is the physiological ability to make the sounds needed for human language. The other species simply lack that ability for the most part.
But how about flipping that view. Has any human been able to learn any language any other species might use? Sea mammals (dolphin, whales) appear to have some form of vocal communications. Similarly, I’ve at least heard stories that wolves also seem to communicate. Anecdotally, I have witnessed what I would take as an indication of communication between two of the dogs we used to have.
My hypothesis might be somewhat along the line of most social/pack animals will have some communication mechanisms, for many that will likely be auditory but perhaps in some settings the non-”verbal” might dominate[1], that is, some level of language. Until we have the ability to establish that one way or another we probably need to keep an open mind on these types of questions (level of intelligence and cross species comparisons.
[1] For instance, do octopi have the ability to communicate with one another visually.
Note—I’m using communicate to indicate more than merely signally some state—aggressive, wary/threatened, sexually active/interested. Until we could decode such communications we will not really be able to say anything about the level of information exchanges or the underlying thinking, if any, associated with it.
Well, that might be true of human language—though I’m not sure about the case of sign language for apes in captivity. Part of the problem is the physiological ability to make the sounds needed for human language. The other species simply lack that ability for the most part.
But how about flipping that view. Has any human been able to learn any language any other species might use? Sea mammals (dolphin, whales) appear to have some form of vocal communications. Similarly, I’ve at least heard stories that wolves also seem to communicate. Anecdotally, I have witnessed what I would take as am indication of communication between two of the dogs we used to have.
Those are decent points. Not enough to sell me but enough to make me take it more seriously.
One could respond by saying that language is a specific human instinct, and if we were all elephants we would be talking about how no other species has anything like our uniquely elephant trunk, etc. etc. (I think I took that example from a Steven Pinker book?) There are certainly cognitive tasks that other animals can do that we can’t at all or as well, like dragonflies predicting the trajectories of their prey (although we could eventually program a computer to do that, I imagine). Anyway, to the larger point, I actually don’t have a strong opinion about the intelligence of “humans without human culture”, and don’t see how it’s particularly relevant to anything. “Humans without human culture” might or might not have language; I know that groups of kids can invent languages from scratch (e.g. Nicaraguan sign language) but I’m not sure about a single human.
There are certainly cognitive tasks that other animals can do that we can’t at all or as well, like dragonflies predicting the trajectories of their prey
That’s fine, but those aren’t nearly as powerful. Language was a big factor in humans taking over the world, predicting the trajectory of whatever dragonflies eat wasn’t and couldn’t be.
Anyway, to the larger point, I actually don’t have a strong opinion about the intelligence of “humans without human culture”, and don’t see how it’s particularly relevant to anything. “Humans without human culture” might or might not have language; I know that groups of kids can invent languages from scratch (e.g. Nicaraguan sign language) but I’m not sure about a single human.
The point is that it is possible to teach a human language, and it seems to be impossible to teach a non-human animal language.
Isn’t it the case that no non-human animal has ever been able to speak a language, even if we’ve tried to raise it as a human? (And that we have in fact tried this with chimps?) If that’s true, why isn’t that the end of the conversation? This is what’s always confused me about this debate. It seems like everyone is ignoring the slam-dunk evidence that’s right there.
Well, that might be true of human language—though I’m not sure about the case of sign language for apes in captivity. Part of the problem is the physiological ability to make the sounds needed for human language. The other species simply lack that ability for the most part.
But how about flipping that view. Has any human been able to learn any language any other species might use? Sea mammals (dolphin, whales) appear to have some form of vocal communications. Similarly, I’ve at least heard stories that wolves also seem to communicate. Anecdotally, I have witnessed what I would take as an indication of communication between two of the dogs we used to have.
My hypothesis might be somewhat along the line of most social/pack animals will have some communication mechanisms, for many that will likely be auditory but perhaps in some settings the non-”verbal” might dominate[1], that is, some level of language. Until we have the ability to establish that one way or another we probably need to keep an open mind on these types of questions (level of intelligence and cross species comparisons.
[1] For instance, do octopi have the ability to communicate with one another visually.
Note—I’m using communicate to indicate more than merely signally some state—aggressive, wary/threatened, sexually active/interested. Until we could decode such communications we will not really be able to say anything about the level of information exchanges or the underlying thinking, if any, associated with it.
Those are decent points. Not enough to sell me but enough to make me take it more seriously.
One could respond by saying that language is a specific human instinct, and if we were all elephants we would be talking about how no other species has anything like our uniquely elephant trunk, etc. etc. (I think I took that example from a Steven Pinker book?) There are certainly cognitive tasks that other animals can do that we can’t at all or as well, like dragonflies predicting the trajectories of their prey (although we could eventually program a computer to do that, I imagine). Anyway, to the larger point, I actually don’t have a strong opinion about the intelligence of “humans without human culture”, and don’t see how it’s particularly relevant to anything. “Humans without human culture” might or might not have language; I know that groups of kids can invent languages from scratch (e.g. Nicaraguan sign language) but I’m not sure about a single human.
That’s fine, but those aren’t nearly as powerful. Language was a big factor in humans taking over the world, predicting the trajectory of whatever dragonflies eat wasn’t and couldn’t be.
The point is that it is possible to teach a human language, and it seems to be impossible to teach a non-human animal language.
There was the Project Nim Chimpsky. It is probably the one you are talking about.