You mean “building the strongest possible version of your interlocutor’s argument”, right?
That’s a good skill. Unfortutanely, if you tell people “Your argument for painting the universe green works if we interpret ‘the universe’ as a metaphor for ‘the shed’.”, they will run off to paint the actual universe green and claim “Will said I was right!”. It might be better to ditch the denotations and stretch the connotations into worthwhile arguments, rather than the opposite—I’m not too sure.
You mean “building the strongest possible version of your interlocutor’s argument”, right?
Yes. Steven Kaas’s classic quote: “If you’re interested in being on the right side of disputes, you will refute your opponents’ arguments. But if you’re interested in producing truth, you will fix your opponents’ arguments for them. To win, you must fight not only the creature you encounter; you must fight the most horrible thing that can be constructed from its corpse.”
Of course, you don’t want to stretch their arguments so much that you’re just using silly words. But in my experience humans are way biased towards thinking that the ideas and beliefs of other smart people are significantly less sophisticated than the ‘opposing side’ wants to give them credit for. It’s just human nature. (I mean, have you seen some of smart theists’ caricatures of standard atheist arguments? No one knows how to be consistently charitable to anywhere near the right degree.)
It might be worth noting that from everything I’ve seen, Michael Vassar seems to strongly disagree with Eliezer on the importance of this, and it very much seems to me that to a very large extent the Less Wrong community has inherited what I perceive to be an obvious weakness of Eliezer’s style of rationality, though of course it has some upsides in efficiency.
Save your charity for where it’s useful: disputes where the other side actually has a chance of being right (or at least informing you of something that’s worth being informed of).
From my vantage point, you seem positively fixated on wanting to extract something of value from traditional human religions (“theism”). This is about as quixotic as it’s possible to get. Down that road lies madness, as Eliezer would say.
You seem to be exemplifying my theory that people simply cannot stomach the notion that there could be an entire human institution, a centuries-old corpus of traditions and beliefs, that contains essentially zero useful information. Surely religion can’t be all wrong, can it? Yes, actually, it can—and it is.
It’s not that there never was anything worth learning from theists, it’s just that by this point, everything of value has already been inherited by our intellectual tradition (from the time when everyone was a theist) and is now available in a suitably processed, relevant, non-theistic form. The juice has already been squeezed.
For example, while speaking of God and monads, Leibniz invented calculus and foreshadowed digital computing. Nowadays, although we don’t go around doing monadology or theodicy, we continue to hold Leibniz in high regard because of the integral sign and computers. This is what it looks like when you learn from theists.
And if you’re going to persist in being charitable to people who continue to adhere to the biggest epistemic mistakes of yesteryear, why stop at mere theism? Why not young-earth creationism? Why not seek out the best arguments of the smartest homeopaths? Maybe this guy has something to teach us, with his all-encompassing synthesis of the world’s religious traditions. Maybe I should be more charitable to his theory that astrology proves that Amanda Knox is guilty. Don’t laugh—he’s smart enough to write grammatical sentences and present commentary on political events that is as coherent as that offered by anyone else!
My aim here is not (just) to tar-and-feather you with low-status associations. The point is that there is a whole universe of madness out there. Charity has its limits. Most hypotheses aren’t even worth the charity of being mentioned. I can’t understand why you’re more interested in the discourse of theism than in the discourse of astrology, unless it’s because (e.g.) Christianity remains a more prestigious belief system in our current general society than astrology. And if that’s the case, you’re totally using the wrong heuristic to find interesting and important ideas that have a chance of being true or useful.
To find the correct contrarian cluster, start with the correct cluster.
You seem to be exemplifying my theory that people simply cannot stomach the notion that there could be an entire human institution, a centuries-old corpus of traditions and beliefs, that contains essentially zero useful information. Surely religion can’t be all wrong, can it? Yes, actually, it can—and it is.
I disagree. There is plenty of useful information in there despite the bullshit. Extracting it is simply inefficient since there are better sources.
This sounds like a nitpick but I think it’s actually very central to the discussion: things that are not even wrong can’t be wrong. (That’s not obviously true; elsewhere in this thread I talk about coding theory and Kraft’s inequality and heuristics and biases and stuff as making the question very contentious, but the main idea is not obviously wrong.) Thus much or spirituality and theology can’t be wrong. (And we do go around using monadology, it’s just called computationalism and it’s a very common meme around LW, and we do go around at least debating theodicy, see Eliezer’s Fun Theory sequence and “Beyond the Reach of God”.)
Your slippery slope argument does not strike me as an actual contribution to the discussion. You have to show that the people and ideas I think are worthwhile are in the set of stupid-therefore-contemptible memes, not assume the conclusion.
Unfortunately, I doubt you or any of the rest of Less Wrong have actually looked at any of the ideas you’re criticizing, or really know what they actually are, as I have been continually pointing out. Prove me wrong! Show me how an ontology can be incorrect, then show me how Leibniz’s ontology was incorrect. Show me that it’s absurd to describe the difference between humans and animals as humans having a soul where animals do not. Show me that it’s absurd to call the convergent algorithm of superintelligence “God”, if you don’t already have the precise language needed to talk in terms of algorithmic probability theory. Better, show me how it would be possible for you to construct such an argument.
We are blessed in that we have the memes and tools to talk of such things with precision; if Leibniz were around today, he too would be making his arguments using algorithmic probability theory and talking about simulations by superintelligences. But throughout history and throughout memespace there is a dearth of technicality. That does not make the ideas expressed incorrect, it simply makes it harder to evaluate them. And if we don’t have the time to evaluate them, we damn well shouldn’t be holding those ideas in mocking contempt. We should know to be more meta than that.
I can’t understand why you’re more interested in the discourse of theism than in the discourse of astrology
One is correct and interesting, one is incorrect and uninteresting. And if you don’t like that I am assuming the conclusion, you will see why I do not like it when others do the same.
There are two debates we could be having. One of them is about choice of language. Another is about who or what we should let ourselves have un-reflected upon contempt for. The former debate is non-obvious and like I said would involve a lot of consideration from a lot of technical fields, and anyway might be very person-dependent. The second is the one that I think is less interesting but more important. I despise the unreflected-upon contempt that the Less Wrong memeplex has for things it does not at all understand.
It’s not that there never was anything worth learning from theists, it’s just that by this point, everything of value has already been inherited by our intellectual tradition (from the time when everyone was a theist) and is now available in a suitably processed, relevant, non-theistic form. The juice has already been squeezed.
A word of caution to those who would dispute this: keep in mind the difference between primary and secondary sources.
As an example, the first is Mein Kampf if read to learn about what caused WWII, the second is Mein Kampf if read to learn about the history of the Aryan people. The distinction is important if someone asks whether or not reading it “has value”.
Aww! :( I managed to suspend my disbelief about astrology and psychic powers and applications to psychiatry, but then he called Rett’s syndrome a severe (yet misspelled) form of autism and I burst out laughing.
Steven Kaas’s classic quote: “If you’re interested in being on the right side of disputes, you will refute your opponents’ arguments. But if you’re interested in producing truth, you will fix your opponents’ arguments for them. To win, you must fight not only the creature you encounter; you must fight the most horrible thing that can be constructed from its corpse.”
It seems to me there’s fixing an opponent’s argument in a way that preserves its basic logic, and then there’s pattern matching its conclusions to the nearest thing that you already think might be true (i..e, isn’t obviously false). It may just be that I’m not familiar with the source material you’re drawing from (i.e., the writings of Leibniz) but are you sure you’re not doing the latter?
Short answer: Yes, in general I am somewhat confident that I recognize and mostly avoid the pattern of naively rounding or translating another’s ideas or arguments in order to often-quite-uselessly play the part of smug meta-contrarian when really “too-easily-satisfied syncretist” would be a more apt description. It is an obvious failure mode, if relatively harmless.
Related: I was being rather flippant in my original drama/comedy-inducing comment. I am not really familiar enough with Leibniz to know how well I am interpreting his ideas, whether too charitably or too uncharitably.
(I recently read Dan Brown’s latest novel, The Lost Symbol, out of a sort of sardonic curiosity. Despite being unintentionally hilarious it made me somewhat sad, ‘cuz there are deep and interesting connections between what he thinks of as ‘science’ and ‘spirituality’, but he gets much too satisfied with surface-level seemingly vaguely plausible links between the two and misses the real-life good stuff. In that way I may be being too uncharitable with Leibniz, who wrote about computer programs and God using the same language and same depth of intellect, and I’ve yet to find someone who can help me understand his intended meanings. Steve’s busy with his AGI11 demo.)
My last discussion post was a result of trying to follow Steven’s quote, and I managed to salvage an interesting argument from a theist. But it didn’t look anything like what you’re doing. In particular, many people were able to parse my argument and pick out the correct parts. Perhaps you could try to condense your attempts in a similar manner?
have you seen some of smart theists’ caricatures of standard atheist arguments
I thought I had, but you seem to have seen worse. Can I have a link? I also request a non-religious example of either an argument that can be reinforced, a response failing to do so, or a response succeeding in doing so.
No one knows how to be consistently charitable to anywhere near the right degree.
You mean “building the strongest possible version of your interlocutor’s argument”, right?
That’s a good skill. Unfortutanely, if you tell people “Your argument for painting the universe green works if we interpret ‘the universe’ as a metaphor for ‘the shed’.”, they will run off to paint the actual universe green and claim “Will said I was right!”. It might be better to ditch the denotations and stretch the connotations into worthwhile arguments, rather than the opposite—I’m not too sure.
Yes. Steven Kaas’s classic quote: “If you’re interested in being on the right side of disputes, you will refute your opponents’ arguments. But if you’re interested in producing truth, you will fix your opponents’ arguments for them. To win, you must fight not only the creature you encounter; you must fight the most horrible thing that can be constructed from its corpse.”
Of course, you don’t want to stretch their arguments so much that you’re just using silly words. But in my experience humans are way biased towards thinking that the ideas and beliefs of other smart people are significantly less sophisticated than the ‘opposing side’ wants to give them credit for. It’s just human nature. (I mean, have you seen some of smart theists’ caricatures of standard atheist arguments? No one knows how to be consistently charitable to anywhere near the right degree.)
It might be worth noting that from everything I’ve seen, Michael Vassar seems to strongly disagree with Eliezer on the importance of this, and it very much seems to me that to a very large extent the Less Wrong community has inherited what I perceive to be an obvious weakness of Eliezer’s style of rationality, though of course it has some upsides in efficiency.
Save your charity for where it’s useful: disputes where the other side actually has a chance of being right (or at least informing you of something that’s worth being informed of).
From my vantage point, you seem positively fixated on wanting to extract something of value from traditional human religions (“theism”). This is about as quixotic as it’s possible to get. Down that road lies madness, as Eliezer would say.
You seem to be exemplifying my theory that people simply cannot stomach the notion that there could be an entire human institution, a centuries-old corpus of traditions and beliefs, that contains essentially zero useful information. Surely religion can’t be all wrong, can it? Yes, actually, it can—and it is.
It’s not that there never was anything worth learning from theists, it’s just that by this point, everything of value has already been inherited by our intellectual tradition (from the time when everyone was a theist) and is now available in a suitably processed, relevant, non-theistic form. The juice has already been squeezed.
For example, while speaking of God and monads, Leibniz invented calculus and foreshadowed digital computing. Nowadays, although we don’t go around doing monadology or theodicy, we continue to hold Leibniz in high regard because of the integral sign and computers. This is what it looks like when you learn from theists.
And if you’re going to persist in being charitable to people who continue to adhere to the biggest epistemic mistakes of yesteryear, why stop at mere theism? Why not young-earth creationism? Why not seek out the best arguments of the smartest homeopaths? Maybe this guy has something to teach us, with his all-encompassing synthesis of the world’s religious traditions. Maybe I should be more charitable to his theory that astrology proves that Amanda Knox is guilty. Don’t laugh—he’s smart enough to write grammatical sentences and present commentary on political events that is as coherent as that offered by anyone else!
My aim here is not (just) to tar-and-feather you with low-status associations. The point is that there is a whole universe of madness out there. Charity has its limits. Most hypotheses aren’t even worth the charity of being mentioned. I can’t understand why you’re more interested in the discourse of theism than in the discourse of astrology, unless it’s because (e.g.) Christianity remains a more prestigious belief system in our current general society than astrology. And if that’s the case, you’re totally using the wrong heuristic to find interesting and important ideas that have a chance of being true or useful.
To find the correct contrarian cluster, start with the correct cluster.
I disagree. There is plenty of useful information in there despite the bullshit. Extracting it is simply inefficient since there are better sources.
See the paragraph immediately following the one you quoted.
This sounds like a nitpick but I think it’s actually very central to the discussion: things that are not even wrong can’t be wrong. (That’s not obviously true; elsewhere in this thread I talk about coding theory and Kraft’s inequality and heuristics and biases and stuff as making the question very contentious, but the main idea is not obviously wrong.) Thus much or spirituality and theology can’t be wrong. (And we do go around using monadology, it’s just called computationalism and it’s a very common meme around LW, and we do go around at least debating theodicy, see Eliezer’s Fun Theory sequence and “Beyond the Reach of God”.)
Your slippery slope argument does not strike me as an actual contribution to the discussion. You have to show that the people and ideas I think are worthwhile are in the set of stupid-therefore-contemptible memes, not assume the conclusion.
Unfortunately, I doubt you or any of the rest of Less Wrong have actually looked at any of the ideas you’re criticizing, or really know what they actually are, as I have been continually pointing out. Prove me wrong! Show me how an ontology can be incorrect, then show me how Leibniz’s ontology was incorrect. Show me that it’s absurd to describe the difference between humans and animals as humans having a soul where animals do not. Show me that it’s absurd to call the convergent algorithm of superintelligence “God”, if you don’t already have the precise language needed to talk in terms of algorithmic probability theory. Better, show me how it would be possible for you to construct such an argument.
We are blessed in that we have the memes and tools to talk of such things with precision; if Leibniz were around today, he too would be making his arguments using algorithmic probability theory and talking about simulations by superintelligences. But throughout history and throughout memespace there is a dearth of technicality. That does not make the ideas expressed incorrect, it simply makes it harder to evaluate them. And if we don’t have the time to evaluate them, we damn well shouldn’t be holding those ideas in mocking contempt. We should know to be more meta than that.
One is correct and interesting, one is incorrect and uninteresting. And if you don’t like that I am assuming the conclusion, you will see why I do not like it when others do the same.
There are two debates we could be having. One of them is about choice of language. Another is about who or what we should let ourselves have un-reflected upon contempt for. The former debate is non-obvious and like I said would involve a lot of consideration from a lot of technical fields, and anyway might be very person-dependent. The second is the one that I think is less interesting but more important. I despise the unreflected-upon contempt that the Less Wrong memeplex has for things it does not at all understand.
A word of caution to those who would dispute this: keep in mind the difference between primary and secondary sources.
As an example, the first is Mein Kampf if read to learn about what caused WWII, the second is Mein Kampf if read to learn about the history of the Aryan people. The distinction is important if someone asks whether or not reading it “has value”.
That said, zero is a suspiciously low number.
Aww! :( I managed to suspend my disbelief about astrology and psychic powers and applications to psychiatry, but then he called Rett’s syndrome a severe (yet misspelled) form of autism and I burst out laughing.
It seems to me there’s fixing an opponent’s argument in a way that preserves its basic logic, and then there’s pattern matching its conclusions to the nearest thing that you already think might be true (i..e, isn’t obviously false). It may just be that I’m not familiar with the source material you’re drawing from (i.e., the writings of Leibniz) but are you sure you’re not doing the latter?
Short answer: Yes, in general I am somewhat confident that I recognize and mostly avoid the pattern of naively rounding or translating another’s ideas or arguments in order to often-quite-uselessly play the part of smug meta-contrarian when really “too-easily-satisfied syncretist” would be a more apt description. It is an obvious failure mode, if relatively harmless.
Related: I was being rather flippant in my original drama/comedy-inducing comment. I am not really familiar enough with Leibniz to know how well I am interpreting his ideas, whether too charitably or too uncharitably.
(I recently read Dan Brown’s latest novel, The Lost Symbol, out of a sort of sardonic curiosity. Despite being unintentionally hilarious it made me somewhat sad, ‘cuz there are deep and interesting connections between what he thinks of as ‘science’ and ‘spirituality’, but he gets much too satisfied with surface-level seemingly vaguely plausible links between the two and misses the real-life good stuff. In that way I may be being too uncharitable with Leibniz, who wrote about computer programs and God using the same language and same depth of intellect, and I’ve yet to find someone who can help me understand his intended meanings. Steve’s busy with his AGI11 demo.)
My last discussion post was a result of trying to follow Steven’s quote, and I managed to salvage an interesting argument from a theist. But it didn’t look anything like what you’re doing. In particular, many people were able to parse my argument and pick out the correct parts. Perhaps you could try to condense your attempts in a similar manner?
I thought I had, but you seem to have seen worse. Can I have a link? I also request a non-religious example of either an argument that can be reinforced, a response failing to do so, or a response succeeding in doing so.
Noted, thanks.