Your story makes me wonder about connections in the other direction, from rationality to locus of control. It seems plausible that cultivated rationality might teach people to notice patterns, to find points of leverage, and to see the ways that they can affect the things that matter to them.
I would definitely say yes. There are people who have a tendency to think that if there’s any major component of randomness involved in something, then it’s pointless to try to make plans relating to that thing. Simply grokking expected utility and some very basic probability theory would help these people tremendously, while also shifting their locus of control inwards.
That’s really helpful. I can see that tendency even in my own attempt to explain what an external locus of control would feel like from the inside in emotionally compelling terms where I wrote:
If your ship’s destination will be determined by random winds that can tear your sails to shreds or speed you swiftly to a surprise destination, why bother making a map? The choice is pretty much just whether to get in the ship at all, and it’s probably a bad idea unless your current conditions are abysmal.
To be less dramatic and more balanced I should have said that the choice is whether to get in the ship at all, comparing the expected value of travel versus the expected value of one’s present circumstances, perhaps with a risk of ruin calculation to handle the different variances and valid risk aversion. My first wording revealed strong risk aversion and no implication of comparative calculation.
...Of course, now that I think about it, even that specific analogy suggests historical examples. People have literally been forced onto ships with little opportunity to research it or calculate expected values when they were to be sold as slaves or serve in the navy, or fight in the jungle. I can easily imagine that many of these people updated in the direction of an external locus of control, and later would “rationally expect” that cultivated rationality wouldn’t be that useful. By the same token, in those specific circumstances, cultivated rationality might have helped them avoid situations where they were likely to be press ganged?
But now we’re getting into “blaming the victim” territory with all the confusions inherent to politics. It makes me wonder if a strong desire to be sympathetic, translated into controversial political questions like these, limits a person’s likely appreciation for cultivated rationality? Maybe the (Gendlin ignoring) logic would run: “If I believed people could have predicted and avoided their current tragic circumstances, then it will be harder for me to be sympathetic, but I want to be sympathetic so I should not believe that people could have predicted and avoided their tragedy.”
Perhaps some kind of “active sympathy” techniques could make rationality training more useful and resilient in adverse social circumstances? I would guess that heart of the trick would be to reverse the latent fear (rather than simply reduce it) and show that irrationality actually tends to reduce effective sympathy, and cultivated rationality tends to increase it. Googling around I find empathic concern as a keyword, with measures being developed in the late 1970′s, and intervention efficacy happening by 2007 for things like couples therapy.
But now we’re getting into “blaming the victim” territory with all the confusions inherent to politics. It makes me wonder if a strong desire to be sympathetic, translated into controversial political questions like these, limits a person’s likely appreciation for cultivated rationality? Maybe the (Gendlin ignoring) logic would run: “If I believed people could have predicted and avoided their current tragic circumstances, then it will be harder for me to be sympathetic, but I want to be sympathetic so I should not believe that people could have predicted and avoided their tragedy.”
I think it is better to be sympathetic regardless of whether the “people could have predicted and avoided their current tragic circumstances” (whatever the counterfactual means, maybe that a more rational person facing the same problem would have predicted and avoided the problem?).
It is not always helping people, to save them from the consequences of their own actions; but I draw a moral line at capital punishment. If you’re dead, you can’t learn from your mistakes.
I am going to go ahead and push that moral line out to cover paralyzing loss of autonomy.
But now we’re getting into “blaming the victim” territory with all the confusions inherent to politics. It makes me wonder if a strong desire to be sympathetic, translated into controversial political questions like these, limits a person’s likely appreciation for cultivated rationality?
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Assume for a second the hypothesis is true: Slaves became slaves because Africa wasn’t rational enough. If we are sympathetic based on false beliefs, then we will not be able to offer them a true solution. We might offer them our sympathies, or be more willing to donate to their cause (even if it’s irrational), but we won’t be able to stop it from happening again.
If we believe that people could have avoided these tragedies through rationality (assuming this is true), then we automatically have the solution for avoiding these tragedies in the future. Just add rationality! It doesn’t matter how sympathetic we are if all we do with our sympathy is wander around, looking for the answer we’ve blinded ourselves to.
Sympathy is more than just feeling bad for the victim while you let them get exploited again and again. Sympathy is understanding the victim and having a desire to help. Clear, truthful understanding of all causes of victimization is a prerequisite for both of these to occur. You cannot understand a victim until you understand how they truly came to be a victim. You cannot provide meaningful help until you understand their role in the problem. Sympathy without rationality is just worthless pity.
I would definitely say yes. There are people who have a tendency to think that if there’s any major component of randomness involved in something, then it’s pointless to try to make plans relating to that thing. Simply grokking expected utility and some very basic probability theory would help these people tremendously, while also shifting their locus of control inwards.
That’s really helpful. I can see that tendency even in my own attempt to explain what an external locus of control would feel like from the inside in emotionally compelling terms where I wrote:
To be less dramatic and more balanced I should have said that the choice is whether to get in the ship at all, comparing the expected value of travel versus the expected value of one’s present circumstances, perhaps with a risk of ruin calculation to handle the different variances and valid risk aversion. My first wording revealed strong risk aversion and no implication of comparative calculation.
...Of course, now that I think about it, even that specific analogy suggests historical examples. People have literally been forced onto ships with little opportunity to research it or calculate expected values when they were to be sold as slaves or serve in the navy, or fight in the jungle. I can easily imagine that many of these people updated in the direction of an external locus of control, and later would “rationally expect” that cultivated rationality wouldn’t be that useful. By the same token, in those specific circumstances, cultivated rationality might have helped them avoid situations where they were likely to be press ganged?
But now we’re getting into “blaming the victim” territory with all the confusions inherent to politics. It makes me wonder if a strong desire to be sympathetic, translated into controversial political questions like these, limits a person’s likely appreciation for cultivated rationality? Maybe the (Gendlin ignoring) logic would run: “If I believed people could have predicted and avoided their current tragic circumstances, then it will be harder for me to be sympathetic, but I want to be sympathetic so I should not believe that people could have predicted and avoided their tragedy.”
Perhaps some kind of “active sympathy” techniques could make rationality training more useful and resilient in adverse social circumstances? I would guess that heart of the trick would be to reverse the latent fear (rather than simply reduce it) and show that irrationality actually tends to reduce effective sympathy, and cultivated rationality tends to increase it. Googling around I find empathic concern as a keyword, with measures being developed in the late 1970′s, and intervention efficacy happening by 2007 for things like couples therapy.
I think it is better to be sympathetic regardless of whether the “people could have predicted and avoided their current tragic circumstances” (whatever the counterfactual means, maybe that a more rational person facing the same problem would have predicted and avoided the problem?).
Like Eliezer says:
I am going to go ahead and push that moral line out to cover paralyzing loss of autonomy.
“We should blame and stigmatize people for conditions where blame and stigma are the most useful methods for curing or preventing the condition...”
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Assume for a second the hypothesis is true: Slaves became slaves because Africa wasn’t rational enough. If we are sympathetic based on false beliefs, then we will not be able to offer them a true solution. We might offer them our sympathies, or be more willing to donate to their cause (even if it’s irrational), but we won’t be able to stop it from happening again.
If we believe that people could have avoided these tragedies through rationality (assuming this is true), then we automatically have the solution for avoiding these tragedies in the future. Just add rationality! It doesn’t matter how sympathetic we are if all we do with our sympathy is wander around, looking for the answer we’ve blinded ourselves to.
Sympathy is more than just feeling bad for the victim while you let them get exploited again and again. Sympathy is understanding the victim and having a desire to help. Clear, truthful understanding of all causes of victimization is a prerequisite for both of these to occur. You cannot understand a victim until you understand how they truly came to be a victim. You cannot provide meaningful help until you understand their role in the problem. Sympathy without rationality is just worthless pity.