. The underlying reality is something to be sculpted by changing associations and symbolic meanings. Consequences of a statement or action are in terms of the consequence to a simulacra, as measured on the third and fourth levels. At most, one pretends to be offering pure level-3 simulacra. One does not pretend to pretend to pretend to be on the object level, rather one stops pretending, period.
I think this is making the exact mistake in understanding level 4 simulacra that I was worried about here.
There are level 4 players in moral mazes that essentially don’t have a source of meaning beyond power (which itself isn’t real meaning to them, but merely the closest substitute). They are subject to the level such that this all they know.
There are also level 4 players that see level 4 as object, that can clearly think at that level and act through it, but also see and act through the other levels as well. And these people are not just NOT the cause of moral mazes, they are in fact the very leaders that are needed to create valuable organizations that change the world.
from that post:
Great leaders can switch between these 3 modes at will.
If you look at Steve Jobs’ reality distortion field, it’s him being able to switch between the 3 modes at will, only using evaluative reality when choosing a direction—other times he’s operating on Generative and Effectuative Rationality principles. This allows him to eventually shape reality to the vision he generated using his effectuative principles. By using the proper types of rationality at the right time, he’s actually able to shape reality instead of merely predicting it.
If you look at Walt Disney, he used to frequently say a phrase that indicates he knew how to switch between these 3 modes: He used to talk about he was “actually 3 different Walts: The Dreamer, The Realist, and the Spoiler”. Access to these 3 modes allowed Walt to do things that other’s would have looked at with their Evaluative Rationality and viewed as impossible.”
You can see with Elon Musk too. Look at that the difference between how he acts with budgeting and how he acts with deadlines. When he’s budgeting, he uses his evaluative rationality—when he’s making deadlines, he’s using his effectuative rationality—he knows large visions and hard to reach goals actually help people take better action. You shouldn’t view his deadlines as predictions, but as motivation tools.
Are great leaders then liars? No, great leaders are Kegan 5 players who don’t just say things, but are actually operating through these 3 frameworks (to a first approximation) at any given time. When a great leader is generating, their not worried about evaluating their ideas. When they’re evaluating, theyre not worried about effectuating those ideas. When they’re effectuating, they’re not generating.
If your goal is to get the meme of “level 4 are lizard people and death to everything” or even “level 3 are opposed against truth and death to everything” you are spreading memes that will actively harm the rationality community’s ability to shape the world in positive ways, by throwing out the baby (powerful leaders who can shape meaning) with the bathwater (lizard-like sociopaths that have no sense of meaning).
I suppose one critique could be something like: We want people and systems who are at Simulacram level 1, and are so good at level 1 that they can see the reality of people who are operating and 2,3, and 4, and actively oppose and reject them. But my intuitions are that that will only work for being a good defense of simulacram level 2. Level’s 3 and 4 can destroy that system from the outside without breaking a sweat before it gets powerful enough to oppose them, and if you try to fight back using their own tools, THEY WILL WIN BECAUSE IT IS THEIR NATIVE LANGUAGE.
That’s why you need a Simulacra level 4 that’s “on your side.”
There are three mistakes. One is the one you worry about, that levels 3 and 4 will be seen as evil and dark arts and avoided, preventing effectiveness. You can’t just hit ignore.
The second is to fail to understand level 4 and even level 3 and treat them as much less alien than they are with respect to levels 1 and 2.
The third is to gaze into the abyss and let it gaze too far into you, and lose your grip on reality. Elon and Steve and Walt are pretty special. It’s something to aspire to.
Balancing all the messages is hard. And right now, I am worried mostly about the first one.
I think that makes a lot of sense and is fair if that’s the thing you’re most worried about. I hope you see how me adding comments to help people avoid the first mistake is important if that’s the thing I’m worried about.
I think this is making the exact mistake in understanding level 4 simulacra that I was worried about here.
There are level 4 players in moral mazes that essentially don’t have a source of meaning beyond power (which itself isn’t real meaning to them, but merely the closest substitute). They are subject to the level such that this all they know.
There are also level 4 players that see level 4 as object, that can clearly think at that level and act through it, but also see and act through the other levels as well. And these people are not just NOT the cause of moral mazes, they are in fact the very leaders that are needed to create valuable organizations that change the world.
from that post:
If your goal is to get the meme of “level 4 are lizard people and death to everything” or even “level 3 are opposed against truth and death to everything” you are spreading memes that will actively harm the rationality community’s ability to shape the world in positive ways, by throwing out the baby (powerful leaders who can shape meaning) with the bathwater (lizard-like sociopaths that have no sense of meaning).
I suppose one critique could be something like: We want people and systems who are at Simulacram level 1, and are so good at level 1 that they can see the reality of people who are operating and 2,3, and 4, and actively oppose and reject them. But my intuitions are that that will only work for being a good defense of simulacram level 2. Level’s 3 and 4 can destroy that system from the outside without breaking a sweat before it gets powerful enough to oppose them, and if you try to fight back using their own tools, THEY WILL WIN BECAUSE IT IS THEIR NATIVE LANGUAGE.
That’s why you need a Simulacra level 4 that’s “on your side.”
There are three mistakes. One is the one you worry about, that levels 3 and 4 will be seen as evil and dark arts and avoided, preventing effectiveness. You can’t just hit ignore.
The second is to fail to understand level 4 and even level 3 and treat them as much less alien than they are with respect to levels 1 and 2.
The third is to gaze into the abyss and let it gaze too far into you, and lose your grip on reality. Elon and Steve and Walt are pretty special. It’s something to aspire to.
Balancing all the messages is hard. And right now, I am worried mostly about the first one.
I think that makes a lot of sense and is fair if that’s the thing you’re most worried about. I hope you see how me adding comments to help people avoid the first mistake is important if that’s the thing I’m worried about.