There are many features you get right about the stubbornness of the problem/discussion. Certainly, modulo the choice to stop the count at two camps, you’ve highlighted some crucial facts about these clusters. But now I’m going to complain about what I see as your missteps.
Moreover, even if consciousness is compatible with the laws of physics, … [camp #2 holds] it’s still metaphysically tricky, i.e., it poses a conceptual mystery relative to our current understanding.
I think we need to be careful not to mush together metaphysics and epistemics. A conceptual mystery, a felt lack of explanation—these are epistemic problems. That’s not sufficient reason to infer distinct metaphysical categories. Particular camp #2 philosophers sometimes have arguments that try to go from these epistemic premises, plus additional premises, to a metaphysical divide between mental and physical properties. Those arguments fail, but aside from that, it’s worthwhile to distinguish their starting points from their conclusions.
Secondly, you imply that according to camp #2, statements like “I experienced a headache” cannot be mistaken. As TAG already pointed out, the claim of incorrigibility is not necessary. As soon as one uses a word or concept, one is risking error. Suppose you are at a new restaurant, and you try the soup, and you say, “this soup tastes like chicken.” Your neighbor says, “no, it tastes like turkey.” You think about it, the taste still fresh in your mind, and realize that she is right. It tastes (to you) like turkey, you just misidentified it.
Finally, a bit like shminux, I don’t know which camp I’m in—except that I do, and it’s neither. Call mine camp 1.5 + 3i. It’s sort of in-between the main two (hence 1.5) but accuses both 1 + 2 of creating imaginary barriers (hence the 3i).
I think we need to be careful not to mush together metaphysics and epistemics. A conceptual mystery, a felt lack of explanation—these are epistemic problems. That’s not sufficient reason to infer distinct metaphysical categories.
It’s nonetheless the best reason. The amount of times you should add new ontological categories isn’t zero, ever—even if you shouldn’t also add a category every time you are confused. Physicists were not wrong to add the nuclear forces to gravity and electromagnetism.
Unfortunately, there is no simple algorithm to tell you when you should add categories.
Particular camp #2 philosophers sometimes have arguments that try to go from these epistemic premises, plus additional premises, to a metaphysical divide between mental and physical properties. Those arguments fail,
Do they? Camp #1 is generally left with denialism about qualia (including illusionism), or promissory physicalism, neither of which is hugely attractive. Regarding promissory physicalism, it’s a subjective judgement, not a proof , that we will have a full reductive explanation of consciousness one day, so it is quite cheeky to call the other camp “wrong” because they have a subjective judgement that we won’t.
Fair point about the experience itself vs its description. But note that all the controversy is about the descriptions.
No, it’s about the implications. People are quite explicit that they don’t want to believe in qualia becasue they don’t want to have to believe in epiphenomenalism, zombies, non physical properties, etc..
Of course, rejecting evidence because it doesn’t fit a theory is the opposite of rationality.
In general, you can also just hold that consciousness is a different way to look at the same process, which is sometimes called dual-aspect monism, and that’s physicalist, too.
Well, materialist—it doesn’t require immaterial substances or non physical properties, but it also denies that all facts are physical facts, contra strong physicalism.
I don’t see DANM as a radical third option to the two camps, I see it as the lightweight or minimalist position in camp #2.
I think we need to be careful not to mush together metaphysics and epistemics. A conceptual mystery, a felt lack of explanation—these are epistemic problems. That’s not sufficient reason to infer distinct metaphysical categories. Particular camp #2 philosophers sometimes have arguments that try to go from these epistemic premises, plus additional premises, to a metaphysical divide between mental and physical properties. Those arguments fail, but aside from that, it’s worthwhile to distinguish their starting points from their conclusions.
Agreed; too tired right now but will think about how to rewrite this part.
Secondly, you imply that according to camp #2, statements like “I experienced a headache” cannot be mistaken. As TAG already pointed out, the claim of incorrigibility is not necessary. As soon as one uses a word or concept, one is risking error. Suppose you are at a new restaurant, and you try the soup, and you say, “this soup tastes like chicken.” Your neighbor says, “no, it tastes like turkey.” You think about it, the taste still fresh in your mind, and realize that she is right. It tastes (to you) like turkey, you just misidentified it.
I don’t think I said that. I think I said that Camp #2 claims one cannot be wrong about the experience itself. I agree (and I don’t think the post claims otherwise) that errors can come in during the step from the experience to the task of finding a verbalization of the experience. You chose an example where that step is particularly risky, hence it permits a larger error.
Note that for Camp #2, you can draw a pretty sharp line between conscious and unconscious modules in your brain, and finding the right verbalization is mostly an unconscious process.
Fair point about the experience itself vs its description. But note that all the controversy is about the descriptions. “Qualia” is a descriptor, “sensation” is a descriptor, etc. Even “illusionists” about qualia don’t deny that people experience things.
Conversely, Camp #2 is convinced that there is an experience thing that exists in a fundamental way. There’s no agreement on what this thing is – some postulate causally active non-material stuff, whereas others agree with Camp #1 that there’s nothing operating outside the laws of physics – but they all agree that there is something that needs explaining. Moreover, even if consciousness is compatible with the laws of physics, it still poses a conceptual mystery relative to our current understanding. A complete solution (if it is even possible) may also have a nontrivial metaphysical component.
I think a lot of Camp #2 people want to introduce new metaphysics, which is why I don’t want to take out the last sentence.
But note that all the controversy is about the descriptions. “Qualia” is a descriptor, “sensation” is a descriptor, etc. Even “illusionists” about qualia don’t deny that people experience things.
I don’t think this is true. E.g., Dennett has these bits in Consciousness Explained: 1, 2, 3, 4.
Of course, the issue is still tricky, and you’re definitely not the only one who thinks it’s just a matter of description, not existence. Almost everyone agrees that something exists, but Camp #2 people tend to want something to exist over and above the reports of that thing, and Dennett seems to deny this. And (as I mentioned in some other comment) part of the point of this post is that you empirically cannot nail down exactly what this thing is in a way that makes sense to everyone. But I think it’s reasonable to say that Dennet doesn’t think people experience things.
Also, Dennett in particular says that there is no ground truth as to what you experience, and this is arguably a pretty well-defined property that’s in contradiction with the idea that the experience itself exists. Like, I think Camp #2 people will generally hold that, even if errors can come in during the reports of experience, there is still always a precise fact of the matter as to what is being experienced. And depending on their metaphysics, it would be possible to figure out what exactly that is with the right neurotech.
And another reason why I don’t think it’s true is because then I think illusionism wouldn’t matter for ethics, but as I mentioned in the post, there are some illusionists who think their position implies moral nihilism. (There are also people who differentiate illusionism and eliminativism based on this point, but I’m guessing you didn’t mean to do that.)
this [that there is no ground truth as to what you experience] is arguably a pretty well-defined property that’s in contradiction with the idea that the experience itself exists.
I beg to differ. The thrust of Dennett’s statement is easily interpreted as the truth of a description being partially constituted by the subject’s acceptance of the description. E.g., in one of the snippets/bits you cite, “I seem to see a pink ring.” If the subject said “I seem to see a reddish oval”, perhaps that would have been true. But compare:
My freely drinking tea rather than coffee is partially constituted by saying to my host “tea, please.” Yet there is still an actual event of my freely drinking tea. Even though if I had said “coffee, please” I probably would have drunk coffee instead.
We are getting into a zone where it is hard to tell what is a verbal issue and what is a substantive one. (And in my view, that’s because the distinction is inherently fuzzy.) But that’s life.
There are many features you get right about the stubbornness of the problem/discussion. Certainly, modulo the choice to stop the count at two camps, you’ve highlighted some crucial facts about these clusters. But now I’m going to complain about what I see as your missteps.
I think we need to be careful not to mush together metaphysics and epistemics. A conceptual mystery, a felt lack of explanation—these are epistemic problems. That’s not sufficient reason to infer distinct metaphysical categories. Particular camp #2 philosophers sometimes have arguments that try to go from these epistemic premises, plus additional premises, to a metaphysical divide between mental and physical properties. Those arguments fail, but aside from that, it’s worthwhile to distinguish their starting points from their conclusions.
Secondly, you imply that according to camp #2, statements like “I experienced a headache” cannot be mistaken. As TAG already pointed out, the claim of incorrigibility is not necessary. As soon as one uses a word or concept, one is risking error. Suppose you are at a new restaurant, and you try the soup, and you say, “this soup tastes like chicken.” Your neighbor says, “no, it tastes like turkey.” You think about it, the taste still fresh in your mind, and realize that she is right. It tastes (to you) like turkey, you just misidentified it.
Finally, a bit like shminux, I don’t know which camp I’m in—except that I do, and it’s neither. Call mine camp 1.5 + 3i. It’s sort of in-between the main two (hence 1.5) but accuses both 1 + 2 of creating imaginary barriers (hence the 3i).
It’s nonetheless the best reason. The amount of times you should add new ontological categories isn’t zero, ever—even if you shouldn’t also add a category every time you are confused. Physicists were not wrong to add the nuclear forces to gravity and electromagnetism.
Unfortunately, there is no simple algorithm to tell you when you should add categories.
Do they? Camp #1 is generally left with denialism about qualia (including illusionism), or promissory physicalism, neither of which is hugely attractive. Regarding promissory physicalism, it’s a subjective judgement, not a proof , that we will have a full reductive explanation of consciousness one day, so it is quite cheeky to call the other camp “wrong” because they have a subjective judgement that we won’t.
No, it’s about the implications. People are quite explicit that they don’t want to believe in qualia becasue they don’t want to have to believe in epiphenomenalism, zombies, non physical properties, etc..
Of course, rejecting evidence because it doesn’t fit a theory is the opposite of rationality.
Well, materialist—it doesn’t require immaterial substances or non physical properties, but it also denies that all facts are physical facts, contra strong physicalism.
I don’t see DANM as a radical third option to the two camps, I see it as the lightweight or minimalist position in camp #2.
Agreed; too tired right now but will think about how to rewrite this part.
I don’t think I said that. I think I said that Camp #2 claims one cannot be wrong about the experience itself. I agree (and I don’t think the post claims otherwise) that errors can come in during the step from the experience to the task of finding a verbalization of the experience. You chose an example where that step is particularly risky, hence it permits a larger error.
Note that for Camp #2, you can draw a pretty sharp line between conscious and unconscious modules in your brain, and finding the right verbalization is mostly an unconscious process.
Fair point about the experience itself vs its description. But note that all the controversy is about the descriptions. “Qualia” is a descriptor, “sensation” is a descriptor, etc. Even “illusionists” about qualia don’t deny that people experience things.
Alright, so I changed the paragraph into this:
I think a lot of Camp #2 people want to introduce new metaphysics, which is why I don’t want to take out the last sentence.
I don’t think this is true. E.g., Dennett has these bits in Consciousness Explained: 1, 2, 3, 4.
Of course, the issue is still tricky, and you’re definitely not the only one who thinks it’s just a matter of description, not existence. Almost everyone agrees that something exists, but Camp #2 people tend to want something to exist over and above the reports of that thing, and Dennett seems to deny this. And (as I mentioned in some other comment) part of the point of this post is that you empirically cannot nail down exactly what this thing is in a way that makes sense to everyone. But I think it’s reasonable to say that Dennet doesn’t think people experience things.
Also, Dennett in particular says that there is no ground truth as to what you experience, and this is arguably a pretty well-defined property that’s in contradiction with the idea that the experience itself exists. Like, I think Camp #2 people will generally hold that, even if errors can come in during the reports of experience, there is still always a precise fact of the matter as to what is being experienced. And depending on their metaphysics, it would be possible to figure out what exactly that is with the right neurotech.
And another reason why I don’t think it’s true is because then I think illusionism wouldn’t matter for ethics, but as I mentioned in the post, there are some illusionists who think their position implies moral nihilism. (There are also people who differentiate illusionism and eliminativism based on this point, but I’m guessing you didn’t mean to do that.)
I beg to differ. The thrust of Dennett’s statement is easily interpreted as the truth of a description being partially constituted by the subject’s acceptance of the description. E.g., in one of the snippets/bits you cite, “I seem to see a pink ring.” If the subject said “I seem to see a reddish oval”, perhaps that would have been true. But compare:
My freely drinking tea rather than coffee is partially constituted by saying to my host “tea, please.” Yet there is still an actual event of my freely drinking tea. Even though if I had said “coffee, please” I probably would have drunk coffee instead.
We are getting into a zone where it is hard to tell what is a verbal issue and what is a substantive one. (And in my view, that’s because the distinction is inherently fuzzy.) But that’s life.