A few of these are a bit hyperbolic, particularly consent. There is never a situation where they are the criminal but an adult wouldn’t be, as opposed to, for example, buying alcohol. So the harm falls on their lovers, not them. Also, these laws are quite poorly enforced.
Non-consensual genital modification generally occurs at birth, and in all Western countries is strictly limited to male circumcision. I am not sure, but I don’t think you could have your 12 year old circumsized against his wishes. So this bullet point is a bit exaggerated.
More generally, and more importantly, minors have substantial privileges. People are legally obliged to care for them and ensure they have a certain standard of health. Schools are obliged to educate them for free. Crimes against them are punished far more severely. Their own crimes a punished (usually) far less severely, and they are in many cases not legally responsible for their own actions.
You certainly have a point, but it’s a bit unbalanced to simply list the downsides. Minors may be among the most restricted groups, but they’re also amongst the most heavily protected by the law.
It may be worthwhile to separate general goods and evils from specific opportunities. The protections you list make children safer from things that are bad for everyone—violence, poor health, inability to get educated. These are, arguably, things that everyone should be more protected from. Saying that children have more of these protections than adults says something about the inadequacy of protection for adults—this sort of intuition drives the affection many people have for universal health care, for instance. Meanwhile, what adults have that children don’t are opportunities to pursue things that they specifically find good and desirable. A child gets an education, but can’t choose its content except in fairly trivial ways—apart from picking a foreign language and a music class, and testing into certain higher-level academic courses, I didn’t get real course selection until college, where I was treated as an adult and had much more loose requirements to fill. As adults, we might or might not have access to education, but if we do, we can pick what kind.
So basically, the protections children get are nice and well-motivated, but they’re one-size-fits-all and poorly suited as a substitute for adult freedom to children with personalities.
A well made argument. Particularly agree to the one-size-fits-all argument.
Our evolution as mammals has forced us to protect our young ones for the survival of our species. The concerns CronoDAS has made are from the perspective of a modern society, especially that of western countries. Even now, millions of kids in third-world countries do not have the option to choose most of the things in that list. In such a situation, more responsible adults need to make a decision on behalf of the children and make available whatever they can for their own benefit.
Non-consensual genital modification generally occurs at birth, and in all Western countries is strictly limited to male circumcision. I am not sure, but I don’t think you could have your 12 year old circumsized against his wishes. So this bullet point is a bit exaggerated.
There is another circumstance in which this applies. Intersex infants with ambiguous genitalia are often surgically modified to better match one of the two standard genders. (But, yes, I admit that the bullet point is exaggerated.)
There is never a situation where they are the criminal but an adult wouldn’t be, as opposed to, for example, buying alcohol. So the harm falls on their lovers, not them.
But in most places, sex between two minors is illegal (edit: below a certain age, not just below the age of majority), and both are liable. And while court cases are rare, punishment at school and at home is common, and most teenagers have to vet their romantic partners with their parents.
More generally, and more importantly, minors have substantial privileges. People are legally obliged to care for them and ensure they have a certain standard of health. Schools are obliged to educate them for free.
Like Alicorn said, these are privileges that should be extended to adults. In many countries, a standard of free health care is guaranteed to all. In some countries, university education is free to all citizens. I’d like to see more of that.
Crimes against them are punished far more severely.
But this is only necessary because they’re prevented from defending themselves the way adults would. Most crimes against young people (it’s silly to call 16 year olds “children”) are done by someone the law forces them to be in daily contact with, even if they hate that person. Such as parents and family and schoolyard bullies. (Most people aren’t allowed to veto their K12 school, class, or teachers.)
Their own crimes a punished (usually) far less severely
If we’re taking the US as a reference point, I would argue that adults should be punished a lot less for most crimes...
Crimes against them are punished far more severely.
I have to correct myself after reading your answer. I think in reality, counting parents, relatives, and schoolteachers, people really aren’t punished more severely when they commit crimes against children. Particularly parents. It’s only strangers who commit crimes against children, or people who commit sexually based offenses against them, that we really bother punishing.
On the other hand, it would be really interesting to see a workable alternative system proposed. This is all, “Kids don’t have these rights!” as opposed to, “Here’s the rights we should give them, how we’d enforce those rights, and how it would work out for the better!”
But in most places, sex between two minors is illegal, and both are liable.
Googling it says otherwise. In 27 states, there’s a “grace period” in which minors can consent within a certain age range, and in 10 states the defendant must explicitly be an adult. Facts are fun!
I stand corrected… So, although the age limit varies by state and is not the same as the age of majority (gaining full legal rights), every state has an age limit below which sex is illegal in all circumstances; usually around 14, but 17 or 18 in a few states. The separately stated age above which all intercourse is valid (i.e., with much older people) is 16 in most states, never lower.
Wikipedia also has an interesting map of worldwide age of consent by country (not representing rules for age differentials or categories). Oh, and quite a few Western countries have laws against specific sexual acts or against certain numbers or sexes of participants.
“Non-consensual genital modification generally occurs at birth, and in all Western countries is strictly limited to male circumcision. I am not sure, but I don’t think you could have your 12 year old circumsized against his wishes. So this bullet point is a bit exaggerated.”
a major controversial choice with extremely opposing opinions and no medically correct answer is non-consensually taken away from the child before he has the ability decide for him self.
“People are legally obliged to care for them and ensure they have a certain standard of health.”
the child is forced to live with a adult who choses to have em and can chose to give him up for adoption at any time.
“Schools are obliged to educate them for free.”
the child is forced to be educated with or without there will so the will hopefully profit society in the future
“Crimes against them are punished far more severely.”
unlike other laws the laws that only affect children are not decided by those the laws will affect. (laws that “protect children” are made for them with out there input)
“Their own crimes a punished (usually) far less severely, and they are in many cases not legally responsible for their own actions.”
this shows the most that they are thought of as lesser children are not thought of as having the ability to be a threat to society but only the pawns of adults.
Point one: you write this as if you’ve thought of a better way. I’d imagine many six year olds would love to never go to school and eat nothing but candy. That it is decided for them that this is not an acceptable option is a net good thing, unless your sole terminal value is freedom of choice.
the child is forced to live with a adult who choses to have em and can chose to give him up for adoption at any time.
Point two: Your objection seems almost entirely directed at bad parents, not the nature of the parent/child relationship. The vast majority of children are actually quite happy about this arrangement, and for some strange reason show distress when you attempt to free them from these terrible, terrible adults. And the claim that adults can choose to give them up for adoption at any time is both misleading and absurd. Legally, yes, but this doesn’t actually happen much, for many social and personal reasons. Comparably, anyone who was willing to go to jail could torture and murder you pretty easily. I hardly think that’s a serious infringement on your freedom, because that subset of people is incredibly tiny. I also must live in constant fear of being slain by a meteorite, but somehow this does not make my life much worse.
Point three: Your final point rather clearly indicates that your mind has filled in the bottom line and is filling in everything above it. This is an unequivocal benefit—I cannot imagine any situation in which someone would prefer to be tried as an adult than as a child (though a tiny number may exist). When you’re at the point of taking clear benefits and saying, “But really, it’s a bad thing,” it’s unlikely that you’re seeking truth.
A few of these are a bit hyperbolic, particularly consent. There is never a situation where they are the criminal but an adult wouldn’t be, as opposed to, for example, buying alcohol. So the harm falls on their lovers, not them. Also, these laws are quite poorly enforced.
Non-consensual genital modification generally occurs at birth, and in all Western countries is strictly limited to male circumcision. I am not sure, but I don’t think you could have your 12 year old circumsized against his wishes. So this bullet point is a bit exaggerated.
More generally, and more importantly, minors have substantial privileges. People are legally obliged to care for them and ensure they have a certain standard of health. Schools are obliged to educate them for free. Crimes against them are punished far more severely. Their own crimes a punished (usually) far less severely, and they are in many cases not legally responsible for their own actions.
You certainly have a point, but it’s a bit unbalanced to simply list the downsides. Minors may be among the most restricted groups, but they’re also amongst the most heavily protected by the law.
It may be worthwhile to separate general goods and evils from specific opportunities. The protections you list make children safer from things that are bad for everyone—violence, poor health, inability to get educated. These are, arguably, things that everyone should be more protected from. Saying that children have more of these protections than adults says something about the inadequacy of protection for adults—this sort of intuition drives the affection many people have for universal health care, for instance. Meanwhile, what adults have that children don’t are opportunities to pursue things that they specifically find good and desirable. A child gets an education, but can’t choose its content except in fairly trivial ways—apart from picking a foreign language and a music class, and testing into certain higher-level academic courses, I didn’t get real course selection until college, where I was treated as an adult and had much more loose requirements to fill. As adults, we might or might not have access to education, but if we do, we can pick what kind.
So basically, the protections children get are nice and well-motivated, but they’re one-size-fits-all and poorly suited as a substitute for adult freedom to children with personalities.
A well made argument. Particularly agree to the one-size-fits-all argument.
Our evolution as mammals has forced us to protect our young ones for the survival of our species. The concerns CronoDAS has made are from the perspective of a modern society, especially that of western countries. Even now, millions of kids in third-world countries do not have the option to choose most of the things in that list. In such a situation, more responsible adults need to make a decision on behalf of the children and make available whatever they can for their own benefit.
There is another circumstance in which this applies. Intersex infants with ambiguous genitalia are often surgically modified to better match one of the two standard genders. (But, yes, I admit that the bullet point is exaggerated.)
But in most places, sex between two minors is illegal (edit: below a certain age, not just below the age of majority), and both are liable. And while court cases are rare, punishment at school and at home is common, and most teenagers have to vet their romantic partners with their parents.
Like Alicorn said, these are privileges that should be extended to adults. In many countries, a standard of free health care is guaranteed to all. In some countries, university education is free to all citizens. I’d like to see more of that.
But this is only necessary because they’re prevented from defending themselves the way adults would. Most crimes against young people (it’s silly to call 16 year olds “children”) are done by someone the law forces them to be in daily contact with, even if they hate that person. Such as parents and family and schoolyard bullies. (Most people aren’t allowed to veto their K12 school, class, or teachers.)
If we’re taking the US as a reference point, I would argue that adults should be punished a lot less for most crimes...
I have to correct myself after reading your answer. I think in reality, counting parents, relatives, and schoolteachers, people really aren’t punished more severely when they commit crimes against children. Particularly parents. It’s only strangers who commit crimes against children, or people who commit sexually based offenses against them, that we really bother punishing.
On the other hand, it would be really interesting to see a workable alternative system proposed. This is all, “Kids don’t have these rights!” as opposed to, “Here’s the rights we should give them, how we’d enforce those rights, and how it would work out for the better!”
Googling it says otherwise. In 27 states, there’s a “grace period” in which minors can consent within a certain age range, and in 10 states the defendant must explicitly be an adult. Facts are fun!
I stand corrected… So, although the age limit varies by state and is not the same as the age of majority (gaining full legal rights), every state has an age limit below which sex is illegal in all circumstances; usually around 14, but 17 or 18 in a few states. The separately stated age above which all intercourse is valid (i.e., with much older people) is 16 in most states, never lower.
Wikipedia also has an interesting map of worldwide age of consent by country (not representing rules for age differentials or categories). Oh, and quite a few Western countries have laws against specific sexual acts or against certain numbers or sexes of participants.
Could you elaborate?
“Non-consensual genital modification generally occurs at birth, and in all Western countries is strictly limited to male circumcision. I am not sure, but I don’t think you could have your 12 year old circumsized against his wishes. So this bullet point is a bit exaggerated.”
a major controversial choice with extremely opposing opinions and no medically correct answer is non-consensually taken away from the child before he has the ability decide for him self.
“People are legally obliged to care for them and ensure they have a certain standard of health.”
the child is forced to live with a adult who choses to have em and can chose to give him up for adoption at any time.
“Schools are obliged to educate them for free.”
the child is forced to be educated with or without there will so the will hopefully profit society in the future
“Crimes against them are punished far more severely.”
unlike other laws the laws that only affect children are not decided by those the laws will affect. (laws that “protect children” are made for them with out there input)
“Their own crimes a punished (usually) far less severely, and they are in many cases not legally responsible for their own actions.”
this shows the most that they are thought of as lesser children are not thought of as having the ability to be a threat to society but only the pawns of adults.
Point one: you write this as if you’ve thought of a better way. I’d imagine many six year olds would love to never go to school and eat nothing but candy. That it is decided for them that this is not an acceptable option is a net good thing, unless your sole terminal value is freedom of choice.
Point two: Your objection seems almost entirely directed at bad parents, not the nature of the parent/child relationship. The vast majority of children are actually quite happy about this arrangement, and for some strange reason show distress when you attempt to free them from these terrible, terrible adults. And the claim that adults can choose to give them up for adoption at any time is both misleading and absurd. Legally, yes, but this doesn’t actually happen much, for many social and personal reasons. Comparably, anyone who was willing to go to jail could torture and murder you pretty easily. I hardly think that’s a serious infringement on your freedom, because that subset of people is incredibly tiny. I also must live in constant fear of being slain by a meteorite, but somehow this does not make my life much worse.
Point three: Your final point rather clearly indicates that your mind has filled in the bottom line and is filling in everything above it. This is an unequivocal benefit—I cannot imagine any situation in which someone would prefer to be tried as an adult than as a child (though a tiny number may exist). When you’re at the point of taking clear benefits and saying, “But really, it’s a bad thing,” it’s unlikely that you’re seeking truth.