I read you as proposing some kind of norm like “always read claims about subsets of specific groups as only referring to that subset, if the claim is worded in such a way as to make that the literal interpretation”.
This is not at all what I’m proposing; your post is way more fixated on the particular example than I expected. The radical norm that I am proposing is simply “read the words that people say, and process them attentively, and respond to those words.” The political subset doesn’t need to be considered separately, because if you have a community that supports and reinforces actually reading the words and processing them and responding to them, that’s sufficient.
To me, this suggests that if there’s something which causes even many people like us to instinctively and automatically react by reading something in a non-literal way, then that reaction is a very powerful force, and that special caution is required. If we are suggesting a norm for dealing with that reaction, then we should at least try to do some basic cost/benefit analysis for that proposed norm, keeping in mind its likely function.
I don’t think cost/benefit analysis is the appropriate frame, here. I think this is the sole purpose, the sole mission. You don’t walk into a martial arts academy and say, let’s do a cost/benefit analysis on whether this whole kicking and punching thing is even worthwhile in a world full of guns. The frame is set—if you don’t like martial arts, don’t show up. Similarly, we shouldn’t be evaluating whether or not to hold ourselves to a standard of rationality, even if doing so is very difficult in some subsets of cases. That question should be answered before one decides whether or not to show up on LESS WRONG. If a person thinks it’s too costly, they shouldn’t be here.
Cost/benefit analyses can help us choose which of several different strategic paths toward the goal to take, and they can help us prioritize among multiple operationalizations of that goal, but they shouldn’t be used to let ourselves off the hook in exactly the areas where rationality is most missing or difficult, and therefore improvements are most needed.
I’m not going to add any further responses to this subthread, because I’ve said all I have to say. Either LW will agree that this is something worth coordinating to all-choose-stag on, or it won’t. It looks like, given the attitudes of most of the mods, it’ll probably be “won’t,” but there’s still room for hope.
The political subset doesn’t need to be considered separately, because if you have a community that supports and reinforces actually reading the words and processing them and responding to them, that’s sufficient.
Since you expressed a desire to disengage from the conversation, I’ll just briefly note for the benefit of others that this excerpt seems like the biggest crux and point of disagreement. To me, coalitional instincts are something that are always active in every group, and whose influence needs to be actively fought back, or they will subvert the goals of the group; just deciding to ignore the political aspects of things, without considering in detail the effect that this change will have on social dynamics, is never sufficient.
… I’ll just briefly note for the benefit of others that this excerpt seems like the biggest crux and point of disagreement. …
In tne interest of the general norm of “trying to identify cruxes and make them explicit”, I’d like to endorse this—except that to me, the issue goes well beyond “human coalitions” and also encompasses many other things that would generally fall under the rubric of ‘politics’ in a broad sense—or for that matter, of ‘ethics’ or ‘morality’! When people, plausibly, were ‘politically’ mindkilled by Duncan’s Dragon Army proposal, this was not necessarily due to their belonging to an “anti-Duncan”, “anti-rationality” or whatever-coalition; instead, the proposal itself may have been aversive to them in a rather deep sense, involving what they regarded as their basic values. This impacts the proposed solution as well, of course; it may not be sufficient to “actively fight back” a narrow coalitional instinct, but a need may arise for addressing “the political [or for that matter, moral, ethical etc.] aspects of things” at a somewhat deeper level, that goes beyond a conventional “arguments and evidence” structure to seek for ‘cruxes’ in our far more fundamental attitudes, and addresses them with meaningful and creative compromises.
Yeah, agreed. It’s not just “political instincts”, it’s that humans are always operating in what’s a fundamentally social reality, of which coalitional instincts are a very large part but not the entirety.
I kinda dislike the “actively fight back” framing too, since it feels like a “treating your own fundamental humanity as an enemy” kind of thing that’s by itself something that we should be trying to get out of; but the easiest links that I had available that concisely expressed the point used that language, so I went with that.
I actually thought the “coalitional” part did deserve a mention, precisely because it is one of the few facets of the problem that we can just fight (which is not to say that coalitions don’t have a social and formal role to play in any actual political system!) Again, I think Crick would also agree with this, and ISTM that he did grapple with these issues at a pretty deep level. If we’re going to go beyond our traditional “no politics!” attitude, I really have to wonder why he’s not considered a trusted reference here, on a par w/ the Sequences and whatever the latest AI textbook is.
Yeah, you’re probably correct; I don’t feel like I’d have a good enough handle of your model to even attempt your ITT. (If this is your way of subtly pointing out that the thing I identified as a crux is likely wrong, correction accepted.)
This is not at all what I’m proposing; your post is way more fixated on the particular example than I expected. The radical norm that I am proposing is simply “read the words that people say, and process them attentively, and respond to those words.” The political subset doesn’t need to be considered separately, because if you have a community that supports and reinforces actually reading the words and processing them and responding to them, that’s sufficient.
I don’t think cost/benefit analysis is the appropriate frame, here. I think this is the sole purpose, the sole mission. You don’t walk into a martial arts academy and say, let’s do a cost/benefit analysis on whether this whole kicking and punching thing is even worthwhile in a world full of guns. The frame is set—if you don’t like martial arts, don’t show up. Similarly, we shouldn’t be evaluating whether or not to hold ourselves to a standard of rationality, even if doing so is very difficult in some subsets of cases. That question should be answered before one decides whether or not to show up on LESS WRONG. If a person thinks it’s too costly, they shouldn’t be here.
Cost/benefit analyses can help us choose which of several different strategic paths toward the goal to take, and they can help us prioritize among multiple operationalizations of that goal, but they shouldn’t be used to let ourselves off the hook in exactly the areas where rationality is most missing or difficult, and therefore improvements are most needed.
I’m not going to add any further responses to this subthread, because I’ve said all I have to say. Either LW will agree that this is something worth coordinating to all-choose-stag on, or it won’t. It looks like, given the attitudes of most of the mods, it’ll probably be “won’t,” but there’s still room for hope.
Since you expressed a desire to disengage from the conversation, I’ll just briefly note for the benefit of others that this excerpt seems like the biggest crux and point of disagreement. To me, coalitional instincts are something that are always active in every group, and whose influence needs to be actively fought back, or they will subvert the goals of the group; just deciding to ignore the political aspects of things, without considering in detail the effect that this change will have on social dynamics, is never sufficient.
In tne interest of the general norm of “trying to identify cruxes and make them explicit”, I’d like to endorse this—except that to me, the issue goes well beyond “human coalitions” and also encompasses many other things that would generally fall under the rubric of ‘politics’ in a broad sense—or for that matter, of ‘ethics’ or ‘morality’! When people, plausibly, were ‘politically’ mindkilled by Duncan’s Dragon Army proposal, this was not necessarily due to their belonging to an “anti-Duncan”, “anti-rationality” or whatever-coalition; instead, the proposal itself may have been aversive to them in a rather deep sense, involving what they regarded as their basic values. This impacts the proposed solution as well, of course; it may not be sufficient to “actively fight back” a narrow coalitional instinct, but a need may arise for addressing “the political [or for that matter, moral, ethical etc.] aspects of things” at a somewhat deeper level, that goes beyond a conventional “arguments and evidence” structure to seek for ‘cruxes’ in our far more fundamental attitudes, and addresses them with meaningful and creative compromises.
Yeah, agreed. It’s not just “political instincts”, it’s that humans are always operating in what’s a fundamentally social reality, of which coalitional instincts are a very large part but not the entirety.
I kinda dislike the “actively fight back” framing too, since it feels like a “treating your own fundamental humanity as an enemy” kind of thing that’s by itself something that we should be trying to get out of; but the easiest links that I had available that concisely expressed the point used that language, so I went with that.
I actually thought the “coalitional” part did deserve a mention, precisely because it is one of the few facets of the problem that we can just fight (which is not to say that coalitions don’t have a social and formal role to play in any actual political system!) Again, I think Crick would also agree with this, and ISTM that he did grapple with these issues at a pretty deep level. If we’re going to go beyond our traditional “no politics!” attitude, I really have to wonder why he’s not considered a trusted reference here, on a par w/ the Sequences and whatever the latest AI textbook is.
Do you have reading recommendations on him?
Loren ipsum
Yeah, you’re probably correct; I don’t feel like I’d have a good enough handle of your model to even attempt your ITT. (If this is your way of subtly pointing out that the thing I identified as a crux is likely wrong, correction accepted.)