Good post; I mostly agree with all specific points therein.
I appreciate that this post has introduced me (via appropriate use of ‘Yudkowskian’ hyperlinking) to several interesting Arbital articles I’d never seen.
All that having been said, I’d like to note that this entire project of “literal truth”, “wizard’s code”, “not technically lying”, etc., etc., seems to me to be quite wrongheaded. This is because I don’t think that any such approach is ethical in the first place. To the contrary: I think that there are some important categories of situations where lying is entirely permissible (i.e., ethically neutral at worst), and others where lying is, in fact, ethically mandatory (and where it is wrong not to lie). In my view, the virtue of honesty (which I take to be quite important indeed), and any commitment to any supposed “literal truth” or similar policy, are incompatible.
Clearly, this view is neither obvious nor likely to be uncontroversial. However, in lieu of (though also in the service of) further elaboration, let me present this ethical question or, if you like, puzzle:
Is it ethically mandatory always to behave as if you know all information which you do, in fact, know?
Is it ethically mandatory always to behave as if you know all information which you do, in fact, know?
Maybe I am missing the point, but since you do know all information which you do in fact, know, wouldn’t behaving as if you do just mean behaving… the way in which you behave? In which case, isn’t the puzzle meaningless?
On the other hand, if we understand the meaning of the puzzle to be illuminated by elriggs’ first reply to it, we could rephrase it (or rather its negation) as follows:
Is it ever ethically acceptable to play a role, other than one of our common “game” roles like poker player, surprise party thrower, etc.
I would answer this question as “yes”, but with a further appeal to honesty in my reasoning: I think that sometimes the inferential distance between you and the people around you is so great that the only way you can try to bridge it is by putting yourself into a role that they can understand. I can give more details over PM but am reluctant to share publically.
Maybe I am missing the point, but since you do know all information which you do in fact, know, wouldn’t behaving as if you do just mean behaving… the way in which you behave? In which case, isn’t the puzzle meaningless?
This is true in the same technically-correct-but-useless sense that it’s true to say something like “choosing what to do is impossible, since you will in fact do whatever you end up doing”. Unless we believe in substance dualism, or magic, or what have you, we have to conclude that our actions are determined, right? So when you do something, it’s impossible for you to have done something different! Well, ok, but having declared that, we do still have to figure out what to have for dinner, and which outfit to wear to the party, and whether to accept that job offer or not.
Neither do I think that talk of “playing roles” is very illuminating here.
OK, fair enough. So you are asking something like “is it ever ethical to keep a secret?” I would argue yes, because different people are entitled to different parts of your psyche. E.g. what I am willing to share on the internet is different from what I am willing to share in real life. Or am I missing something again?
Your best friend Carol owns a pastry shop. One day you learn that her store manager, Dave, is embezzling large sums of money from the business. What do you do?
Silly question, obvious answer: tell Carol at once! Indeed, failing to do so would be a betrayal—later, when Carol has to close the shop and file for bankruptcy, her beloved business ruined, and she learns that you knew of Dave’s treachery and said nothing—how can you face her? The friendship is over. It’s quite clear: if you know that the guy is stealing, you will tell Carol, period.
Now suppose that Dave, the pastry shop manager, is actually also a friend of yours, and your knowledge of his crime is not accidental but comes because he confides in you, having first sworn you to secrecy. Foolishly, you agreed—a poor decision in retrospect, but such is life.
And now: (a) you have information (Dave is stealing from Carol); (b) ordinarily, having such information dictates your behavior in a clear way (you must take it at once to Carol); (c) yet you have sworn to keep said information secret.
Thus the question: are you obligated to behave as if you know this information (i.e., to inform Carol of Dave’s treachery)? Or, is it morally permissible for you to behave as if you know nothing (and thus to do nothing—and not only that, but to lie if Carol asks “do you know if Dave is stealing from the shop?”, etc.)?
If I understand your puzzle right, then poker, surprise parties/engagements, and those lying games you play with your friends where some people are “murderers” but are trying to hide the fact.
No, that is not the sort of thing I have in mind. Exclude games, performances, and similar things where you are (by consent of all involved) playing a role or otherwise “bracketing” your utterances within an artificial context, and consider the question again.
Ethical is undefined here, but if it was a defined standard, you’d just pick the available action that scores well on that standard, even if it doesn’t satisfy the constraint “behave as if you know all information you in fact know” (which I think the hiding Jews from a Nazi is the classic example)
If the point of solving the puzzle is to better understand the concept “ethics in relation to truth-acting” then I don’t think I’ve added much by the Nazi example or the games & performances ones.
What do you believe the point of the puzzle is? What would a good solution entail or imply?
The point of me positing the puzzle is for you (or anyone who cares to tackle this) to say what your chosen / preferred / ideal ethics answers to this; or, alternatively or additionally, what your moral intuitions say about this (and if your ethics, or your moral intuitions, or both, say nothing to this, then that too is an interesting and important fact). And the point of the puzzle itself is that the answer isn’t necessarily obvious.
“Do what your ethics says you should do” is therefore a non-answer.
If the point of solving the puzzle is to better understand the concept “ethics in relation to truth-acting” then I don’t think I’ve added much by the Nazi example or the games & performances ones.
For me the answer is no, I don’t believe it’s ethically mandatory to share all information I know to everyone if they happen to ask the right question. I can’t give a complete formalization of why, but three specific situations are 1) keeping someone else’s information secret & 2) when I predict the other person will assume harmful implications that aren’t true &3) when the other person isn’t in the right mind to hear the true information.
Ex for #3: you would like your husband to change more diapers and help clean up a little more before they leave work every day, but you just thought of it right when he came home from a long work day. It would be better to wait to give a criticism when you’re sure they’re in a good mood.
An example for #2: I had a friend have positive thoughts towards a girl that wasn’t his girlfriend. He was confused about this and TOLD HIS GIRLFRIEND WHEN THEY WERE DATING LONG DISTANCE. The two girls have had an estranged relationship for years since.
If I was my friend, I would understand that positive thoughts towards a pretty girl my age doesn’t imply that I am required to romantically engage them. Telling my girlfriend about these thoughts might be truthful and honest, but it would likely cause her to feel insecure and jealous, even though she has nothing to worry about.
For me the answer is no, I don’t believe it’s ethically mandatory to share all information I know to everyone if they happen to ask the right question.
Note that this is an answer to a considerably narrower question than the one I asked.
That having been said, I think at least some of what you mentioned / described was relevant. In any case, given your answer, the answer to the broader question must necessarily also be “no”.
So, what I wonder now is whether anyone is willing to take, and defend, the opposite view: that it is ethically mandatory at all times to behave as if you know all the information which, in fact, you know. (It is, I know, an odd—or, at least, oddly formulated—ethical principle. And yet it seems to me that it directly connected to the subject of the OP…)
I realized afterwards that only “not sharing others secrets” is an example of “it’s ethical to lie if someone asks a direct question”. The other two were more “don’t go out of your way to tell the whole truth in this situation (but wait for a better situation)”
I do believe my ethics is composed of wanting what’s “best” for others and truthful communication is just an instrumental goal.
If I had to blatantly lie every day, so that all my loved ones could be perfectly healthy and feel great, I would lie every day.
I don’t think anyone would terminally value honesty (in any of it’s forms).
First, some quick comments:
Good post; I mostly agree with all specific points therein.
I appreciate that this post has introduced me (via appropriate use of ‘Yudkowskian’ hyperlinking) to several interesting Arbital articles I’d never seen.
Relevant old post by Paul Christiano: “If we can’t lie to others, we will lie to ourselves”.
All that having been said, I’d like to note that this entire project of “literal truth”, “wizard’s code”, “not technically lying”, etc., etc., seems to me to be quite wrongheaded. This is because I don’t think that any such approach is ethical in the first place. To the contrary: I think that there are some important categories of situations where lying is entirely permissible (i.e., ethically neutral at worst), and others where lying is, in fact, ethically mandatory (and where it is wrong not to lie). In my view, the virtue of honesty (which I take to be quite important indeed), and any commitment to any supposed “literal truth” or similar policy, are incompatible.
Clearly, this view is neither obvious nor likely to be uncontroversial. However, in lieu of (though also in the service of) further elaboration, let me present this ethical question or, if you like, puzzle:
Is it ethically mandatory always to behave as if you know all information which you do, in fact, know?
Maybe I am missing the point, but since you do know all information which you do in fact, know, wouldn’t behaving as if you do just mean behaving… the way in which you behave? In which case, isn’t the puzzle meaningless?
On the other hand, if we understand the meaning of the puzzle to be illuminated by elriggs’ first reply to it, we could rephrase it (or rather its negation) as follows:
I would answer this question as “yes”, but with a further appeal to honesty in my reasoning: I think that sometimes the inferential distance between you and the people around you is so great that the only way you can try to bridge it is by putting yourself into a role that they can understand. I can give more details over PM but am reluctant to share publically.
This is true in the same technically-correct-but-useless sense that it’s true to say something like “choosing what to do is impossible, since you will in fact do whatever you end up doing”. Unless we believe in substance dualism, or magic, or what have you, we have to conclude that our actions are determined, right? So when you do something, it’s impossible for you to have done something different! Well, ok, but having declared that, we do still have to figure out what to have for dinner, and which outfit to wear to the party, and whether to accept that job offer or not.
Neither do I think that talk of “playing roles” is very illuminating here.
For a better treatment of the topic, see this recent comment by Viliam.
OK, fair enough. So you are asking something like “is it ever ethical to keep a secret?” I would argue yes, because different people are entitled to different parts of your psyche. E.g. what I am willing to share on the internet is different from what I am willing to share in real life. Or am I missing something again?
Perhaps. Consider this scenario:
Your best friend Carol owns a pastry shop. One day you learn that her store manager, Dave, is embezzling large sums of money from the business. What do you do?
Silly question, obvious answer: tell Carol at once! Indeed, failing to do so would be a betrayal—later, when Carol has to close the shop and file for bankruptcy, her beloved business ruined, and she learns that you knew of Dave’s treachery and said nothing—how can you face her? The friendship is over. It’s quite clear: if you know that the guy is stealing, you will tell Carol, period.
Now suppose that Dave, the pastry shop manager, is actually also a friend of yours, and your knowledge of his crime is not accidental but comes because he confides in you, having first sworn you to secrecy. Foolishly, you agreed—a poor decision in retrospect, but such is life.
And now: (a) you have information (Dave is stealing from Carol); (b) ordinarily, having such information dictates your behavior in a clear way (you must take it at once to Carol); (c) yet you have sworn to keep said information secret.
Thus the question: are you obligated to behave as if you know this information (i.e., to inform Carol of Dave’s treachery)? Or, is it morally permissible for you to behave as if you know nothing (and thus to do nothing—and not only that, but to lie if Carol asks “do you know if Dave is stealing from the shop?”, etc.)?
If I understand your puzzle right, then poker, surprise parties/engagements, and those lying games you play with your friends where some people are “murderers” but are trying to hide the fact.
Is your puzzle different than that?
No, that is not the sort of thing I have in mind. Exclude games, performances, and similar things where you are (by consent of all involved) playing a role or otherwise “bracketing” your utterances within an artificial context, and consider the question again.
Ethical is undefined here, but if it was a defined standard, you’d just pick the available action that scores well on that standard, even if it doesn’t satisfy the constraint “behave as if you know all information you in fact know” (which I think the hiding Jews from a Nazi is the classic example)
If the point of solving the puzzle is to better understand the concept “ethics in relation to truth-acting” then I don’t think I’ve added much by the Nazi example or the games & performances ones.
What do you believe the point of the puzzle is? What would a good solution entail or imply?
The point of me positing the puzzle is for you (or anyone who cares to tackle this) to say what your chosen / preferred / ideal ethics answers to this; or, alternatively or additionally, what your moral intuitions say about this (and if your ethics, or your moral intuitions, or both, say nothing to this, then that too is an interesting and important fact). And the point of the puzzle itself is that the answer isn’t necessarily obvious.
“Do what your ethics says you should do” is therefore a non-answer.
I agree.
Thanks for the clarification.
For me the answer is no, I don’t believe it’s ethically mandatory to share all information I know to everyone if they happen to ask the right question. I can’t give a complete formalization of why, but three specific situations are 1) keeping someone else’s information secret & 2) when I predict the other person will assume harmful implications that aren’t true &3) when the other person isn’t in the right mind to hear the true information.
Ex for #3: you would like your husband to change more diapers and help clean up a little more before they leave work every day, but you just thought of it right when he came home from a long work day. It would be better to wait to give a criticism when you’re sure they’re in a good mood.
An example for #2: I had a friend have positive thoughts towards a girl that wasn’t his girlfriend. He was confused about this and TOLD HIS GIRLFRIEND WHEN THEY WERE DATING LONG DISTANCE. The two girls have had an estranged relationship for years since.
If I was my friend, I would understand that positive thoughts towards a pretty girl my age doesn’t imply that I am required to romantically engage them. Telling my girlfriend about these thoughts might be truthful and honest, but it would likely cause her to feel insecure and jealous, even though she has nothing to worry about.
Note that this is an answer to a considerably narrower question than the one I asked.
That having been said, I think at least some of what you mentioned / described was relevant. In any case, given your answer, the answer to the broader question must necessarily also be “no”.
So, what I wonder now is whether anyone is willing to take, and defend, the opposite view: that it is ethically mandatory at all times to behave as if you know all the information which, in fact, you know. (It is, I know, an odd—or, at least, oddly formulated—ethical principle. And yet it seems to me that it directly connected to the subject of the OP…)
I realized afterwards that only “not sharing others secrets” is an example of “it’s ethical to lie if someone asks a direct question”. The other two were more “don’t go out of your way to tell the whole truth in this situation (but wait for a better situation)”
I do believe my ethics is composed of wanting what’s “best” for others and truthful communication is just an instrumental goal.
If I had to blatantly lie every day, so that all my loved ones could be perfectly healthy and feel great, I would lie every day.
I don’t think anyone would terminally value honesty (in any of it’s forms).