Another avenue to something related to this concept is Babble and Prune (and a third one is de Bono’s Six Thinking Hats): we have different algorithms for creating vs. criticizing ideas. These algorithms don’t mix well, so if you want to come up with new ideas, it’s better to first generate ideas and only later criticize them. IIRC this is also the advice for group brainstorming.
2) That said, I really don’t like the Socrates analogy here. The loose analogy between execution and moderation seems entirely unnecessary, and sounds like a call for violence. I think that makes the discussion about moderation more emotionally charged, and I don’t see how that helps anyone.
Furthermore, Wikipedia is unclear to which extent Socrates’ execution was for political vs. religious reasons. Insofar as it was for religious reasons, that would make him the victim of a religious dispute, or even a martyr; I think this interpretation works against your thesis.
In 399 BC, Socrates went on trial for corrupting the minds of the youth of Athens, and for impiety… The official charges were: (1) corrupting youth; (2) worshipping false gods; and (3) not worshipping the state religion.
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The question of what motivated Athenians to convict Socrates remains controversial among scholars. There are two theories. The first is that Socrates was convicted on religious grounds; the second, that he was accused and convicted for political reasons. Another, more recent, interpretation synthesizes the religious and political theories, arguing that religion and state were not separate in ancient Athens.
The argument for religious persecution is supported by the fact that Plato’s and Xenophon’s accounts of the trial mostly focus on the charges of impiety. In those accounts, Socrates is portrayed as making no effort to dispute the fact that he did not believe in the Athenian gods. Against this argument stands the fact that many skeptics and atheist philosophers during this time were not prosecuted. According to the argument for political persecution, Socrates was targeted because he was perceived as a threat to democracy. It was true that Socrates did not stand for democracy during the reign of the Thirty Tyrants and that most of his pupils were against the democrats.
3) Finally, I would like to suggest a norm whereby, if you criticize specific active LW users, to mention that they’re banned from commenting on your posts. (I guess you could alternatively mention that in your commenting guidelines.) And that’s coming from someone who has seen some of the exchanges these users are involved in, and so very much understands why they’re banned.
The book “Pharmakon” by Michael Rinella goes into some detail as to the scarcely-known details behind the “impiety” charge against Socrates. If I recall correctly from the book, it was not just that Socrates rhetorically disavowed belief in the gods. The final straw that broke the camel’s back was when Socrates and his disciples engaged in a “symposion” one night, basically an aristocratic cocktail party where they would drink “mixed wine” (wine sometimes infused with other substances like opium or other psychoactive herbs) and then perform poetry/discuss philosophy/discuss politics/etc., and then afterwards a not-infrequent coda to such “symposions” would be a “komos” or drunken parade of revelry of the symposion-goers through the public streets of Athens late at night. Allegedly, during one of these late-night “komos” episodes, Socrates and his followers committed a terrible “hubris,” which was to break off all of the phalloi of the Hermes statues in the city, which was simultaneously juvenile and obnoxious and a terrible sacrilege.
1) I agree with the spirit of this. To re-quote my comment on Elizabeth’s Butterfly Ideas post:
2) That said, I really don’t like the Socrates analogy here. The loose analogy between execution and moderation seems entirely unnecessary, and sounds like a call for violence. I think that makes the discussion about moderation more emotionally charged, and I don’t see how that helps anyone.
Furthermore, Wikipedia is unclear to which extent Socrates’ execution was for political vs. religious reasons. Insofar as it was for religious reasons, that would make him the victim of a religious dispute, or even a martyr; I think this interpretation works against your thesis.
3) Finally, I would like to suggest a norm whereby, if you criticize specific active LW users, to mention that they’re banned from commenting on your posts. (I guess you could alternatively mention that in your commenting guidelines.) And that’s coming from someone who has seen some of the exchanges these users are involved in, and so very much understands why they’re banned.
The book “Pharmakon” by Michael Rinella goes into some detail as to the scarcely-known details behind the “impiety” charge against Socrates. If I recall correctly from the book, it was not just that Socrates rhetorically disavowed belief in the gods. The final straw that broke the camel’s back was when Socrates and his disciples engaged in a “symposion” one night, basically an aristocratic cocktail party where they would drink “mixed wine” (wine sometimes infused with other substances like opium or other psychoactive herbs) and then perform poetry/discuss philosophy/discuss politics/etc., and then afterwards a not-infrequent coda to such “symposions” would be a “komos” or drunken parade of revelry of the symposion-goers through the public streets of Athens late at night. Allegedly, during one of these late-night “komos” episodes, Socrates and his followers committed a terrible “hubris,” which was to break off all of the phalloi of the Hermes statues in the city, which was simultaneously juvenile and obnoxious and a terrible sacrilege.
Fascinating! Though that once again gives the charge of “corrupting the youth” a different connotation than the one assumed in Duncan’s post.