Communist dictator Joseph Stalin maintained power through killing millions of his countrymen and terrorizing the rest. He often lashed out at his old comrades, sometimes killing them and their families; other times he was satisfied with just jailing their wives. Stalin, who was denounced shortly after his death by his successor Nikita Khrushchev, must have known how hated he was. But the dictator knew that those who hated him were too weak or fearful to hurt him.
The first cryonics patient was preserved in 1967, fourteen years after Stalin’s death. But what if, I wonder, cryonics existed during the time of Stalin, and the dictator hoped to have himself preserved? Stalin was too smart to think his successors would have ever wanted him back. So if, at the beginning of his rule, Stalin had hoped to someday use cryonics, he would have had to be a less ruthless ruler. To have any hope at cryogenic revival, the world will need to want you back. So if the world’s leaders intend to use cryonics, they will have to care more about what the future will think of them.
Joseph Stalin is not yet dead, it would seem. The Soviet leader who was responsible for the deaths of millions over his thirty-year rule still commands worryingly high levels of admiration for a host of reasons.
Stalin was almost universally loved and worshiped among the not-yet-jailed population. [EDIT: “almost universally” is stronger than necessary to make might point. The real numbers are not known and hard to come by. “A majority” would probably be a safe estimate.] But you do have a point that after his death it could have unraveled, though not necessarily so. Mao is still venerated in China, and Kim Il Sung in NK. Besides, narcissists are skilled in convincing themselves that everyone loves them, except for bad people. So I don’t think your argument that
Stalin had hoped to someday use cryonics, he would have had to be a less ruthless ruler.
Yeah, I don’t see the firm stats on the issue. My online search was not very fruitful, either. Judging by the reaction to Stalin’s death, the number is definitely at the “more than half” level, but I can’t tell much more than that. If you have any relevant links, please feel free to post them. And yeah, my unnecessarily strong statement detracted from the point I was trying to make.
Well-known, sure, documented, not so sure. How reliable, do you think, are estimates of true attitudes towards Stalin in a society where you were required to display adoration at the pain of being sent to Gulag or just executed? People who didn’t like Stalin applauded with everyone else and never ever mentioned their dislike to anyone.
I do not doubt that some large percentage of the population did love and worship Stalin. But the “almost universally” might or might not be true—my point is that the degree to which he was genuinely loved is very uncertain and that uncertainty is not widely recognized.
What you stated is your view of Russians as “the Other.” People are everywhere the same, and while the way people react to a complete totalitarian takeover of society is a very interest subject, your view of what happens in such a society is very shallow and a little sad. I pray you will have never have to live in such a society yourself to experience what happens first hand.
You can try to read between Bulgakov’s lines to understand what people who can put two and two together might have thought at the time. And he was just the one who had the courage to write, most wrote nothing.
What you stated is your view of Russians as “the Other.”
Huh? Where did you get that from?
People are everywhere the same
Yes and no. Biologically they are very similar on average. Culturally they end up very different. Hopefully you are not arguing with this empirical fact.
while the way people react to a complete totalitarian takeover of society is a very interest subject
Quite so. I suspect that having grown up in a society grown from an absolute monarchy would make another takeover easier, but I do not have any research handy to back it up, so it’s just a suspicion. Certainly Chile recovered nicely after Pinochet. And Ho Chi Minh is still venerated in Vietnam, 55 years after his death.
your view of what happens in such a society is very shallow and a little sad
You don’t know what my views are, you are lamenting your strawmanning of them.
I pray you will have never have to live in such a society yourself to experience what happens first hand.
And now you are also making rather unwarranted assumptions about my life experiences.
You can try to read between Bulgakov’s lines to understand what people who can put two and two together might have thought at the time.
Of course, there were people who saw through the propaganda and brainwashing. Unfortunately, they were a tiny minority. Most were scared, blamed some low-level bureaucrat for certain failures, but adored the guy at the top.
And he was just the one who had the courage to write, most wrote nothing.
Indeed, most of those who saw through the con were too scared to put anything on paper, and for a good reason. And many of those who did probably got disappeared without a trace, so we don’t know about them. Which does not invalidate my original point that an average person loved and worshipped Stalin.
I guess I have nothing to add, other than suggest you read about Russian history from about 1812 to about 1939. Or maybe talk to some folks who lived through Stalin years, if you can find any still alive.
From my book Singularity Rising:
Communist dictator Joseph Stalin maintained power through killing millions of his countrymen and terrorizing the rest. He often lashed out at his old comrades, sometimes killing them and their families; other times he was satisfied with just jailing their wives. Stalin, who was denounced shortly after his death by his successor Nikita Khrushchev, must have known how hated he was. But the dictator knew that those who hated him were too weak or fearful to hurt him.
The first cryonics patient was preserved in 1967, fourteen years after Stalin’s death. But what if, I wonder, cryonics existed during the time of Stalin, and the dictator hoped to have himself preserved? Stalin was too smart to think his successors would have ever wanted him back. So if, at the beginning of his rule, Stalin had hoped to someday use cryonics, he would have had to be a less ruthless ruler. To have any hope at cryogenic revival, the world will need to want you back. So if the world’s leaders intend to use cryonics, they will have to care more about what the future will think of them.
Apparently quite a number of people in the former Soviet Union want Stalin back:
http://carnegieendowment.org/2013/03/01/stalin-puzzle-deciphering-post-soviet-public-opinion
Stalin was almost universally loved and worshiped among the not-yet-jailed population. [EDIT: “almost universally” is stronger than necessary to make might point. The real numbers are not known and hard to come by. “A majority” would probably be a safe estimate.] But you do have a point that after his death it could have unraveled, though not necessarily so. Mao is still venerated in China, and Kim Il Sung in NK. Besides, narcissists are skilled in convincing themselves that everyone loves them, except for bad people. So I don’t think your argument that
has no basis in fact.
I doubt Stalin would have been as ruthless as far as killing people go if he wouldn’t have a general distrust of other people.
This is plain not true, the level of his popular support (not “love and worship”) is disputed, but at the “more than half” vs “less than half” level.
But I kind of agree with your conclusion.
Yeah, I don’t see the firm stats on the issue. My online search was not very fruitful, either. Judging by the reaction to Stalin’s death, the number is definitely at the “more than half” level, but I can’t tell much more than that. If you have any relevant links, please feel free to post them. And yeah, my unnecessarily strong statement detracted from the point I was trying to make.
Heh. Those Russians just aren’t ready for a Western style democracy, they love their Tsar. So the trope goes. It’s still going, sadly.
<looks at Putin’s ratings> I see empirical support for that proposition :-/
Way to strawman. I only stated a well-known and documented historical fact.
Well-known, sure, documented, not so sure. How reliable, do you think, are estimates of true attitudes towards Stalin in a society where you were required to display adoration at the pain of being sent to Gulag or just executed? People who didn’t like Stalin applauded with everyone else and never ever mentioned their dislike to anyone.
I do not have reliable sources handy, but the widespread unfeigned mourning of his passing in 1953 seems to hint at genuine feelings.
I do not doubt that some large percentage of the population did love and worship Stalin. But the “almost universally” might or might not be true—my point is that the degree to which he was genuinely loved is very uncertain and that uncertainty is not widely recognized.
What you stated is your view of Russians as “the Other.” People are everywhere the same, and while the way people react to a complete totalitarian takeover of society is a very interest subject, your view of what happens in such a society is very shallow and a little sad. I pray you will have never have to live in such a society yourself to experience what happens first hand.
You can try to read between Bulgakov’s lines to understand what people who can put two and two together might have thought at the time. And he was just the one who had the courage to write, most wrote nothing.
[ edit: I did not downvote. ]
Huh? Where did you get that from?
Yes and no. Biologically they are very similar on average. Culturally they end up very different. Hopefully you are not arguing with this empirical fact.
Quite so. I suspect that having grown up in a society grown from an absolute monarchy would make another takeover easier, but I do not have any research handy to back it up, so it’s just a suspicion. Certainly Chile recovered nicely after Pinochet. And Ho Chi Minh is still venerated in Vietnam, 55 years after his death.
You don’t know what my views are, you are lamenting your strawmanning of them.
And now you are also making rather unwarranted assumptions about my life experiences.
Of course, there were people who saw through the propaganda and brainwashing. Unfortunately, they were a tiny minority. Most were scared, blamed some low-level bureaucrat for certain failures, but adored the guy at the top.
Indeed, most of those who saw through the con were too scared to put anything on paper, and for a good reason. And many of those who did probably got disappeared without a trace, so we don’t know about them. Which does not invalidate my original point that an average person loved and worshipped Stalin.
I guess I have nothing to add, other than suggest you read about Russian history from about 1812 to about 1939. Or maybe talk to some folks who lived through Stalin years, if you can find any still alive.
Very disappointing.
While I respect your expertise in comp sci and math, you have much to learn about rational discourse. I suppose this will be the last we talk on LW.
No they aren’t. And even if you argue that people are biologically the same, they are very clearly different culturally and culture matters.