Well-known, sure, documented, not so sure. How reliable, do you think, are estimates of true attitudes towards Stalin in a society where you were required to display adoration at the pain of being sent to Gulag or just executed? People who didn’t like Stalin applauded with everyone else and never ever mentioned their dislike to anyone.
I do not doubt that some large percentage of the population did love and worship Stalin. But the “almost universally” might or might not be true—my point is that the degree to which he was genuinely loved is very uncertain and that uncertainty is not widely recognized.
What you stated is your view of Russians as “the Other.” People are everywhere the same, and while the way people react to a complete totalitarian takeover of society is a very interest subject, your view of what happens in such a society is very shallow and a little sad. I pray you will have never have to live in such a society yourself to experience what happens first hand.
You can try to read between Bulgakov’s lines to understand what people who can put two and two together might have thought at the time. And he was just the one who had the courage to write, most wrote nothing.
What you stated is your view of Russians as “the Other.”
Huh? Where did you get that from?
People are everywhere the same
Yes and no. Biologically they are very similar on average. Culturally they end up very different. Hopefully you are not arguing with this empirical fact.
while the way people react to a complete totalitarian takeover of society is a very interest subject
Quite so. I suspect that having grown up in a society grown from an absolute monarchy would make another takeover easier, but I do not have any research handy to back it up, so it’s just a suspicion. Certainly Chile recovered nicely after Pinochet. And Ho Chi Minh is still venerated in Vietnam, 55 years after his death.
your view of what happens in such a society is very shallow and a little sad
You don’t know what my views are, you are lamenting your strawmanning of them.
I pray you will have never have to live in such a society yourself to experience what happens first hand.
And now you are also making rather unwarranted assumptions about my life experiences.
You can try to read between Bulgakov’s lines to understand what people who can put two and two together might have thought at the time.
Of course, there were people who saw through the propaganda and brainwashing. Unfortunately, they were a tiny minority. Most were scared, blamed some low-level bureaucrat for certain failures, but adored the guy at the top.
And he was just the one who had the courage to write, most wrote nothing.
Indeed, most of those who saw through the con were too scared to put anything on paper, and for a good reason. And many of those who did probably got disappeared without a trace, so we don’t know about them. Which does not invalidate my original point that an average person loved and worshipped Stalin.
I guess I have nothing to add, other than suggest you read about Russian history from about 1812 to about 1939. Or maybe talk to some folks who lived through Stalin years, if you can find any still alive.
Heh. Those Russians just aren’t ready for a Western style democracy, they love their Tsar. So the trope goes. It’s still going, sadly.
<looks at Putin’s ratings> I see empirical support for that proposition :-/
Way to strawman. I only stated a well-known and documented historical fact.
Well-known, sure, documented, not so sure. How reliable, do you think, are estimates of true attitudes towards Stalin in a society where you were required to display adoration at the pain of being sent to Gulag or just executed? People who didn’t like Stalin applauded with everyone else and never ever mentioned their dislike to anyone.
I do not have reliable sources handy, but the widespread unfeigned mourning of his passing in 1953 seems to hint at genuine feelings.
I do not doubt that some large percentage of the population did love and worship Stalin. But the “almost universally” might or might not be true—my point is that the degree to which he was genuinely loved is very uncertain and that uncertainty is not widely recognized.
What you stated is your view of Russians as “the Other.” People are everywhere the same, and while the way people react to a complete totalitarian takeover of society is a very interest subject, your view of what happens in such a society is very shallow and a little sad. I pray you will have never have to live in such a society yourself to experience what happens first hand.
You can try to read between Bulgakov’s lines to understand what people who can put two and two together might have thought at the time. And he was just the one who had the courage to write, most wrote nothing.
[ edit: I did not downvote. ]
Huh? Where did you get that from?
Yes and no. Biologically they are very similar on average. Culturally they end up very different. Hopefully you are not arguing with this empirical fact.
Quite so. I suspect that having grown up in a society grown from an absolute monarchy would make another takeover easier, but I do not have any research handy to back it up, so it’s just a suspicion. Certainly Chile recovered nicely after Pinochet. And Ho Chi Minh is still venerated in Vietnam, 55 years after his death.
You don’t know what my views are, you are lamenting your strawmanning of them.
And now you are also making rather unwarranted assumptions about my life experiences.
Of course, there were people who saw through the propaganda and brainwashing. Unfortunately, they were a tiny minority. Most were scared, blamed some low-level bureaucrat for certain failures, but adored the guy at the top.
Indeed, most of those who saw through the con were too scared to put anything on paper, and for a good reason. And many of those who did probably got disappeared without a trace, so we don’t know about them. Which does not invalidate my original point that an average person loved and worshipped Stalin.
I guess I have nothing to add, other than suggest you read about Russian history from about 1812 to about 1939. Or maybe talk to some folks who lived through Stalin years, if you can find any still alive.
Very disappointing.
While I respect your expertise in comp sci and math, you have much to learn about rational discourse. I suppose this will be the last we talk on LW.
No they aren’t. And even if you argue that people are biologically the same, they are very clearly different culturally and culture matters.