(I have in fact noticed that comments of mine that discuss music score consistently lower than my other comments. I can understand if some of the “mathy” types of people that populate this site have a perception that topics relating to art and music are “fluffy” and unprestigious, but what I’ve never been able to understand is why this perception doesn’t seem to get updated once they run into people who are similarly “mathy” but also interested in art and music.)
My impression (at least, why I dislike these conversations even though I generally don’t downvote them) is that it’s a manifestation of the general anti-academia sentiment on LW. It isn’t that people don’t like music or current composers, but that they resist any measure of composer quality besides what they like. If I listen to some Philip Glass and get bored and learn he has a reputation as a great modern composer, I downvote reputation rather than upvoting Glass.
It isn’t that people don’t like music or current composers, but that they resist any measure of composer quality besides what they like
That’s not a reason for resisting discussions of possible measures of composer quality. (To say nothing of other music topics.) Instead, it’s merely a reason for taking a particular position (“what I like”) within such a discussion.
It would be like saying that the reason people don’t like discussions of ethics is that they resist any measure of ethical behavior other than Theory X. But that’s not a reason for downvoting discussion of ethics, it’s a reason for arguing for Theory X.
I get the impression you (and others who think similarly) may not be reading these comments carefully. That’s certainly true if you think that I’ve somehow been arguing positions on the object-level question of which composers are better than others. To the best of my recollection, all I’ve ever engaged in here are (1) meta-level prolegomena to such a discussion, usually in response to people taking nontrivial theories for granted without realizing it; and (2) awareness-raising of the existence of MACs—which is badly needed, as your own comment demonstrates. (You cited Philip Glass, who does not have a high reputation in academia; it would be only a mild exaggeration to say that he is closer to Lady Gaga than to the kind of people I’m talking about.)
Please do not downvote comments without reading them carefully, especially if they’re from established users.
That’s not a reason for resisting discussions of possible measures of composer quality.
It is, though. If you saw a comment thread discussing possible measures of color quality (i.e. forest green is the best color and should be your favorite), how would you react? I would be concerned. If people think musical preference is like color preference, then any statement about how people should value academic music more sounds like an argument about how people should value orange more.
(I am moderately guilty of this. But my argument is essentially that gardeners should focus on flowers that are pretty in the visual spectrum rather than flowers that are pretty in the ultraviolet spectrum, and that strikes me as superior to staking out a particular part of the visual spectrum.)
It would be like saying that the reason people don’t like discussions of ethics is that they resist any measure of ethical behavior other than Theory X. But that’s not a reason for downvoting discussion of ethics, it’s a reason for arguing for Theory X.
You can perform thought experiments along these lines and I think the results will be similar. If I put together some comments arguing that the Muslim way of treating women like property to be protected is probably better for them than the American way of treating women like sexually liberated people, I expect those comments would not be voted as highly as my normal comments, even if I polished them to the same level of quality.
That is, people often seem to use downvotes as an argument against a position that seems to be beyond the pale, and it’s not clear to me that’s entirely a bad thing. There are cases where it hurts, but also cases where it helps (instead of getting into a heated political argument, one would just downvote and walk away).
If you saw a comment thread discussing possible measures of color quality (i.e. forest green is the best color and should be your favorite), how would you react?
I would be curious. I would want to know what the arguments were, and if in particular there were points involved that I hadn’t considered. And if, after reading the arguments, it turned out that I disagreed with one or more of the participants, I might post a comment saying so, and explaining why; in particular, what I wouldn’t do is downvote on the grounds that people somehow “ought to know” that of course discussions on the merits of colors are pointless.
All this, by the way, without regard to whether the discussion was object-level (“green is the best color because...”) or meta-level (“it may be possible for there to exist a best color because....”). And even if I for some reason had low opinions of “the sort of people” who argued about the object-level question (and for some reason I thought those reasons also applied on LW), I would not regard that as sufficient reason to disapprove of (and downvote) a discussion of the meta-level question (which is all that has been occurring here with regard to music).
If people think musical preference is like color preference,
Again, this is a belief that they may turn out to be wrong about! In fact, as I would argue, this is a very poor analogy indeed. I don’t understand why you would disapprove of my making the argument that this is a poor analogy. Why shouldn’t I be allowed to point out, for example, that the analogue of color preferences in music would be the sounds of particular instruments, rather than the experience of an entire musical composition, or (still less) type of composition? That, if you wanted a visual analogy, you would do better to compare it to the experience of particular paintings, or styles of painting?
Seriously, how much total time did you spend thinking about this question, before you came to the conclusion that musical preference is obviously just like color preference, and that therefore not only is it pointless to argue about musical preference, it’s pointless to argue about whether musical preference is like color preference?
(I know that you didn’t technically say that that was your position, but I do get the feeling it is, and the question certainly goes for anybody whose position it actually is.)
Have you considered the possibility that you might have some belief-updating to do in this region of question-space? Have you asked yourself what data might be generating my comments (which, I repeat, are not actually about what music is “better”, except insofar as I have happened to mention, in passing, [aspects of] my own preferences, being careful never to argue that anyone else should adopt them), and whether you’ve already taken that data into account in forming your current beliefs?
That is, people often seem to use downvotes as an argument against a position that seems to be beyond the pale
Why anyone would think that any of my comments on the subject of music have been in any way “beyond the pale” is utterly beyond me.
Why anyone would think that any of my comments on the subject of music have been in any way “beyond the pale” is utterly beyond me.
Don’t know about pale but certainly beyond the point where responding with actual words is likely to have any benefit.
I did not downvote you earlier. I just ignored the discussion entirely after the first dozen comments a while back made it clear I was going to learn nothing new.
For what it is worth: Paintings are definitely a better analogy. There are objective aspects to musical or artistic performance as well as subjective ones. Most notable are:
Technical difficulty for the human brain to produce certain types of patterns.
The extent to which a piece triggers an underlying general mechanism in the naive human brain. (Where the trained brain component is a mix of subjectively arbitrary and that which is covered in the below point.)
The extent to which the artist predicts the response of the intended audience and elicits desired behavior from them. The ability to predict what people want when they are not quite sure about it themselves. This can be measured via fiscal rewards or proxies for status.
People should not value orange more. Orange is horrible.
Agree. I actually suspect there is some objective basis behind that judgement. Just like red really does make you look like you’re driving faster and generally winning more.
My impression (at least, why I dislike these conversations even though I generally don’t downvote them) is that it’s a manifestation of the general anti-academia sentiment on LW. It isn’t that people don’t like music or current composers, but that they resist any measure of composer quality besides what they like. If I listen to some Philip Glass and get bored and learn he has a reputation as a great modern composer, I downvote reputation rather than upvoting Glass.
That’s not a reason for resisting discussions of possible measures of composer quality. (To say nothing of other music topics.) Instead, it’s merely a reason for taking a particular position (“what I like”) within such a discussion.
It would be like saying that the reason people don’t like discussions of ethics is that they resist any measure of ethical behavior other than Theory X. But that’s not a reason for downvoting discussion of ethics, it’s a reason for arguing for Theory X.
I get the impression you (and others who think similarly) may not be reading these comments carefully. That’s certainly true if you think that I’ve somehow been arguing positions on the object-level question of which composers are better than others. To the best of my recollection, all I’ve ever engaged in here are (1) meta-level prolegomena to such a discussion, usually in response to people taking nontrivial theories for granted without realizing it; and (2) awareness-raising of the existence of MACs—which is badly needed, as your own comment demonstrates. (You cited Philip Glass, who does not have a high reputation in academia; it would be only a mild exaggeration to say that he is closer to Lady Gaga than to the kind of people I’m talking about.)
Please do not downvote comments without reading them carefully, especially if they’re from established users.
It is, though. If you saw a comment thread discussing possible measures of color quality (i.e. forest green is the best color and should be your favorite), how would you react? I would be concerned. If people think musical preference is like color preference, then any statement about how people should value academic music more sounds like an argument about how people should value orange more.
(I am moderately guilty of this. But my argument is essentially that gardeners should focus on flowers that are pretty in the visual spectrum rather than flowers that are pretty in the ultraviolet spectrum, and that strikes me as superior to staking out a particular part of the visual spectrum.)
You can perform thought experiments along these lines and I think the results will be similar. If I put together some comments arguing that the Muslim way of treating women like property to be protected is probably better for them than the American way of treating women like sexually liberated people, I expect those comments would not be voted as highly as my normal comments, even if I polished them to the same level of quality.
That is, people often seem to use downvotes as an argument against a position that seems to be beyond the pale, and it’s not clear to me that’s entirely a bad thing. There are cases where it hurts, but also cases where it helps (instead of getting into a heated political argument, one would just downvote and walk away).
I would be curious. I would want to know what the arguments were, and if in particular there were points involved that I hadn’t considered. And if, after reading the arguments, it turned out that I disagreed with one or more of the participants, I might post a comment saying so, and explaining why; in particular, what I wouldn’t do is downvote on the grounds that people somehow “ought to know” that of course discussions on the merits of colors are pointless.
All this, by the way, without regard to whether the discussion was object-level (“green is the best color because...”) or meta-level (“it may be possible for there to exist a best color because....”). And even if I for some reason had low opinions of “the sort of people” who argued about the object-level question (and for some reason I thought those reasons also applied on LW), I would not regard that as sufficient reason to disapprove of (and downvote) a discussion of the meta-level question (which is all that has been occurring here with regard to music).
Again, this is a belief that they may turn out to be wrong about! In fact, as I would argue, this is a very poor analogy indeed. I don’t understand why you would disapprove of my making the argument that this is a poor analogy. Why shouldn’t I be allowed to point out, for example, that the analogue of color preferences in music would be the sounds of particular instruments, rather than the experience of an entire musical composition, or (still less) type of composition? That, if you wanted a visual analogy, you would do better to compare it to the experience of particular paintings, or styles of painting?
Seriously, how much total time did you spend thinking about this question, before you came to the conclusion that musical preference is obviously just like color preference, and that therefore not only is it pointless to argue about musical preference, it’s pointless to argue about whether musical preference is like color preference?
(I know that you didn’t technically say that that was your position, but I do get the feeling it is, and the question certainly goes for anybody whose position it actually is.)
Have you considered the possibility that you might have some belief-updating to do in this region of question-space? Have you asked yourself what data might be generating my comments (which, I repeat, are not actually about what music is “better”, except insofar as I have happened to mention, in passing, [aspects of] my own preferences, being careful never to argue that anyone else should adopt them), and whether you’ve already taken that data into account in forming your current beliefs?
Why anyone would think that any of my comments on the subject of music have been in any way “beyond the pale” is utterly beyond me.
Don’t know about pale but certainly beyond the point where responding with actual words is likely to have any benefit.
I did not downvote you earlier. I just ignored the discussion entirely after the first dozen comments a while back made it clear I was going to learn nothing new.
For what it is worth: Paintings are definitely a better analogy. There are objective aspects to musical or artistic performance as well as subjective ones. Most notable are:
Technical difficulty for the human brain to produce certain types of patterns.
The extent to which a piece triggers an underlying general mechanism in the naive human brain. (Where the trained brain component is a mix of subjectively arbitrary and that which is covered in the below point.)
The extent to which the artist predicts the response of the intended audience and elicits desired behavior from them. The ability to predict what people want when they are not quite sure about it themselves. This can be measured via fiscal rewards or proxies for status.
People should not value orange more. Orange is horrible.
Agree. I actually suspect there is some objective basis behind that judgement. Just like red really does make you look like you’re driving faster and generally winning more.