This topic touches a chord with me for various reasons, so I will try to comment as I read.
One of the most persistent arguments, often left implicit, that antifeminists have on their side is “Women want to be raped and abused.”
There is a problem with the definitions here. A significant fraction of women (and smaller but not insignificant fraction of men, and let’s not forget about all other genders, too) have physical and/or sexual and/or emotional abuse fantasies in various degrees. Some of those want it to remain a fantasy, others want to experience it in actuality, but in a controlled and safe way, yet others want to feel helpless and out of control, yet be still OK afterwards (such as consensual non-consent), and a small minority really want to be hurt bad or even killed, the hell with the consequences. The “antifeminists” probably project this small minority onto the majority of women.
On one hand, this is an obvious logical contradiction if taken literally. Rape is unwanted sex — how can you want something unwanted?
Humans are not monolithic agents! We have many contradictory drives, needs and values. A part of us may want to be abused, while another part is horrified by the idea.
Men are more violent than women. This is a human universal, and true in many of our mammalian relatives as well.
If you mean physical violence, then yes. If you mean emotional violence, then women are just as adept at it, of not more so, than men. Some mother/daughter relationships are of the worst and most toxic kind. “Will I ever be good enough?” is a classic example.
you might start to wonder whether at least some women might have a thing for men who use force on them
Uh. As you said, and as is universally acknowledged, “bad boys” have more success than nice guys. And I mean real nice guys, not the self-proclaiming ones. Scott Aaronson’s famous comment 171 is a great example of it. And the reaction to it is also a great example of vicious emotional abuse, mostly by some self-proclaimed feminists.
And it’s a description of a woman in an abusive relationship with a rapist.
Seriously? Have you read the book? Sure, Christian is not the model of a healthy BDSM relationship with Ana, though he certainly appears to be in his previous BDSM relationships with more experienced partners. Absolutely, he crosses the consent line here and there, mostly unintentionally and out of anger, which is generally a hallmark of an abuser. He even once or twice blames Ana for it: “you make me do this”, which is the excuse most abusers use. However, his overarching goal is a mutually happy and satisfying relationship. He doesn’t try to gaslight her, he takes responsibility for his actions as the older and more experienced partner, and he tries as hard as he can to make it work. This is very impressive given his background of growing up in an abusive situation and having his sexuality shaped by a non-consensual submissive BDSM relationship with an older woman. As far as D/s (or even vanilla) relationship go, Christian and Ana’s are definitely on the positive side of the Bell curve. They genuinely love each other and care for each other from the get go, and overcome a lot of obstacles to be happy together.
The question Pervocracy asks is — why are people into this?
It’s a good question, and worth researching without prejudice. FetLife.com is the site devoted to all legal kinks, and you will find a huge variety of them there.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the author and many of the fans have been in abusive relationships or grew up in abusive households.
There is definitely a correlation between kink and childhood trauma. Sometimes it is about reenactment, sometimes it is about self-hate, and sometimes it is about overcoming the external manifestations of the trauma by engaging in ostensibly similar roles, but in a safe and consensual setting. That said, it’s just a correlation, and by no means a certainty. Plenty of people enjoy dominant or submissive roles despite growing up in a healthy and nurturing environment. Nurture has rather limited effect on one’s upbringing.
A classic and maybe even defining feature of abuse is that the abused person is made to feel that it is normal or even right for them to be harmed. They’re told “You deserve it.” Or “this is just what relationships or families are like.” Or “you aren’t being harmed, you’re fine.” Over time, abused people may come to believe this.
Yep. During my years emotionally supporting people online I have seen plenty of that. When done by the parents or guardians during a child formative years, this form of abuse is extremely insidious, and nearly impossible to overcome later in life. As an aside, I wish the EA movement spent some time focusing on this hidden source of suffering that is all around us.
And people who deeply believe that it is normal or right for them to be harmed may expose themselves to harm again, in order to confirm or validate their model of the world. This is what “self-harm” or “self-destructive behavior” is. It’s not that the harm makes them happy. It’s that it makes them right.
Sadly, that is indeed what happens. Once a part of you internalizes the abuser’s message, abuse-seeking becomes a pattern, and often a blind spot. The more one gets abused growing up, the more split their personality becomes, C-PTSD tilting into DID in especially severe cases.
Maybe abused people really do have a higher risk of seeking out a repetition of the harm they experienced and were taught to believe was normal.
That’s not even a maybe. Abuse seeking and reenactment is a well-documented pattern.
So I think the antifeminist account is confusing cause and effect. It’s not that women want men to hurt them. It’s that men hurt women a lot.
And men hurt men a lot. And women hurt men and women a lot, just in different ways. Reverse sexism is still sexism, just like reverse racism is still racism. No race, gender or ethnicity has a monopoly on being good or bad. The Bell curves are wide and very much overlapping. And yes, people often confuse cause and effect. And, as you had mentioned previously, the effect, once internalized becomes and perpetuates the cause. Also, another definitional question: “hurt” may mean many things. What you probably mean is the non-consensual hurt, and what the “antifeminists” mean is their projection of a minority of women wanting to get hurt in various ways onto all women, the majority of whom have no interest in being hurt in the way these particular men want to hurt them.
But even if there were agency on her part in seeking out abusers, people do not only optimize for their own well-being. People also, and in fact primarily, optimize for validation.
In other words, “Congratulations, asshole! Even if you’re right, you found someone who was hurting herself and decided you’d help her along.”
This is another real and common pattern. Predators are good at sniffing out their prey. Many childhood abuse survivors still give off this victim vibe years after the original abuse is over, often without realizing it. The two groups naturally gravitate toward each other, and, as a result, it is easy for an abuse victim to end up in another abusive relationship, and it is easy for an abuser to reenact the same role without ever realizing the harm they are doing to their partner.
In modern, colloquial language, I think the best word we have for the thing is healthy, as in, “make healthy choices,” and in close analogy with the concept of physical health.
Yes, that’s the commonly used term.
But even if there were agency on her part in seeking out abusers, people do not only optimize for their own well-being. People also, and in fact primarily, optimize for validation.
If by validation you mean acting to reconcile your view of self with your view of the world. Or the views of some part of you, since a human rarely has uniform and unchanging values.
You shouldn’t be (intentionally, avoidably) making people less healthy. You shouldn’t fuck people up.
Yes, that’s the idea. In reality, few people intend to make others less healthy. More often than not, we make someone miserable, “less healthy” while thinking that we are doing what is good for them. Sometimes because we think we know better than they do, sometimes to justify our own actions, sometimes just because we are careless. Ask an abuser, and most of them, save for true psychopaths, would find a perfectly good excuse for what they do, and why, in their opinion, they were actually doing what the other person needed or even wanted.
You can’t always fix one of those tangles from the outside, but it’s a good idea to stop it from spreading, interrupt it, get people out of it when they have a decent chance of recovery, and so on.
Uh. Sadly the situation tends to be far worse than that. Notice the “post-traumatic” part of PTSD and CPTSD. Paradoxically, the removal of trauma can have negative effects! I know quite a few people who ostensibly overcame shitty childhood and were on their way to live a healthy life, only to see it all crashing down a few years later, as the post-traumatic effects got out of control and became disabling. Like a kettle under pressure, when the external pressure is removed, it is far easier for it to crack. Constantly fighting for survival is actually the healthiest way to live for some people.
And, likewise, if you see someone who appears to be optimizing for the opposite of health and happiness, you shouldn’t help them with that goal on the grounds of “revealed preference.” It’s probably not going to make you healthy and happy either.
Generally, that’s a good advice. Unless you know what you are doing, hurting others because they seem to crave it is a slippery slope. And hurting those who don’t want to get hurt because you think that deep inside they do, like those “antifeminist” claim, is definitely a bad idea.
It’s a good question, and worth researching without prejudice. FetLife.com is the site devoted to all legal kinks, and you will find a huge variety of them there.
If you google Pervocracy you will find on page 1: “Cliff Pervocracy” wants you to know that BDSM is feminist.` It’s a source that’s part of the kink community and a lot of the community rejects 50 Shades the same way as “not BDSM”.
I’m quite confused by your indignation at the description of 50 Shades as a portrait of “an abusive relationship with a rapist”, followed by your agreeing that Grey in the book did abusive things and “crossed consent lines here and there” (which comes across as an overly flippant phrasing for the subject matter, but whatever). Him allegedly trying to be better isn’t good enough. I haven’t read the book, but I am… not sure about your claim that the relationship is a relatively good one (I expect this is true of some societies and not others), but even if that’s true, there’s no need to grade on a curve here or object to a factual description of bad things because the bad things are common. Indeed, their being common is much of the point, here.
This topic touches a chord with me for various reasons, so I will try to comment as I read.
There is a problem with the definitions here. A significant fraction of women (and smaller but not insignificant fraction of men, and let’s not forget about all other genders, too) have physical and/or sexual and/or emotional abuse fantasies in various degrees. Some of those want it to remain a fantasy, others want to experience it in actuality, but in a controlled and safe way, yet others want to feel helpless and out of control, yet be still OK afterwards (such as consensual non-consent), and a small minority really want to be hurt bad or even killed, the hell with the consequences. The “antifeminists” probably project this small minority onto the majority of women.
Humans are not monolithic agents! We have many contradictory drives, needs and values. A part of us may want to be abused, while another part is horrified by the idea.
If you mean physical violence, then yes. If you mean emotional violence, then women are just as adept at it, of not more so, than men. Some mother/daughter relationships are of the worst and most toxic kind. “Will I ever be good enough?” is a classic example.
Uh. As you said, and as is universally acknowledged, “bad boys” have more success than nice guys. And I mean real nice guys, not the self-proclaiming ones. Scott Aaronson’s famous comment 171 is a great example of it. And the reaction to it is also a great example of vicious emotional abuse, mostly by some self-proclaimed feminists.
Seriously? Have you read the book? Sure, Christian is not the model of a healthy BDSM relationship with Ana, though he certainly appears to be in his previous BDSM relationships with more experienced partners. Absolutely, he crosses the consent line here and there, mostly unintentionally and out of anger, which is generally a hallmark of an abuser. He even once or twice blames Ana for it: “you make me do this”, which is the excuse most abusers use. However, his overarching goal is a mutually happy and satisfying relationship. He doesn’t try to gaslight her, he takes responsibility for his actions as the older and more experienced partner, and he tries as hard as he can to make it work. This is very impressive given his background of growing up in an abusive situation and having his sexuality shaped by a non-consensual submissive BDSM relationship with an older woman. As far as D/s (or even vanilla) relationship go, Christian and Ana’s are definitely on the positive side of the Bell curve. They genuinely love each other and care for each other from the get go, and overcome a lot of obstacles to be happy together.
It’s a good question, and worth researching without prejudice. FetLife.com is the site devoted to all legal kinks, and you will find a huge variety of them there.
There is definitely a correlation between kink and childhood trauma. Sometimes it is about reenactment, sometimes it is about self-hate, and sometimes it is about overcoming the external manifestations of the trauma by engaging in ostensibly similar roles, but in a safe and consensual setting. That said, it’s just a correlation, and by no means a certainty. Plenty of people enjoy dominant or submissive roles despite growing up in a healthy and nurturing environment. Nurture has rather limited effect on one’s upbringing.
Yep. During my years emotionally supporting people online I have seen plenty of that. When done by the parents or guardians during a child formative years, this form of abuse is extremely insidious, and nearly impossible to overcome later in life. As an aside, I wish the EA movement spent some time focusing on this hidden source of suffering that is all around us.
Sadly, that is indeed what happens. Once a part of you internalizes the abuser’s message, abuse-seeking becomes a pattern, and often a blind spot. The more one gets abused growing up, the more split their personality becomes, C-PTSD tilting into DID in especially severe cases.
That’s not even a maybe. Abuse seeking and reenactment is a well-documented pattern.
And men hurt men a lot. And women hurt men and women a lot, just in different ways. Reverse sexism is still sexism, just like reverse racism is still racism. No race, gender or ethnicity has a monopoly on being good or bad. The Bell curves are wide and very much overlapping. And yes, people often confuse cause and effect. And, as you had mentioned previously, the effect, once internalized becomes and perpetuates the cause. Also, another definitional question: “hurt” may mean many things. What you probably mean is the non-consensual hurt, and what the “antifeminists” mean is their projection of a minority of women wanting to get hurt in various ways onto all women, the majority of whom have no interest in being hurt in the way these particular men want to hurt them.
This is another real and common pattern. Predators are good at sniffing out their prey. Many childhood abuse survivors still give off this victim vibe years after the original abuse is over, often without realizing it. The two groups naturally gravitate toward each other, and, as a result, it is easy for an abuse victim to end up in another abusive relationship, and it is easy for an abuser to reenact the same role without ever realizing the harm they are doing to their partner.
Yes, that’s the commonly used term.
If by validation you mean acting to reconcile your view of self with your view of the world. Or the views of some part of you, since a human rarely has uniform and unchanging values.
Yes, that’s the idea. In reality, few people intend to make others less healthy. More often than not, we make someone miserable, “less healthy” while thinking that we are doing what is good for them. Sometimes because we think we know better than they do, sometimes to justify our own actions, sometimes just because we are careless. Ask an abuser, and most of them, save for true psychopaths, would find a perfectly good excuse for what they do, and why, in their opinion, they were actually doing what the other person needed or even wanted.
Uh. Sadly the situation tends to be far worse than that. Notice the “post-traumatic” part of PTSD and CPTSD. Paradoxically, the removal of trauma can have negative effects! I know quite a few people who ostensibly overcame shitty childhood and were on their way to live a healthy life, only to see it all crashing down a few years later, as the post-traumatic effects got out of control and became disabling. Like a kettle under pressure, when the external pressure is removed, it is far easier for it to crack. Constantly fighting for survival is actually the healthiest way to live for some people.
Generally, that’s a good advice. Unless you know what you are doing, hurting others because they seem to crave it is a slippery slope. And hurting those who don’t want to get hurt because you think that deep inside they do, like those “antifeminist” claim, is definitely a bad idea.
If you google Pervocracy you will find on page 1: “Cliff Pervocracy” wants you to know that BDSM is feminist.` It’s a source that’s part of the kink community and a lot of the community rejects 50 Shades the same way as “not BDSM”.
I’m quite confused by your indignation at the description of 50 Shades as a portrait of “an abusive relationship with a rapist”, followed by your agreeing that Grey in the book did abusive things and “crossed consent lines here and there” (which comes across as an overly flippant phrasing for the subject matter, but whatever). Him allegedly trying to be better isn’t good enough. I haven’t read the book, but I am… not sure about your claim that the relationship is a relatively good one (I expect this is true of some societies and not others), but even if that’s true, there’s no need to grade on a curve here or object to a factual description of bad things because the bad things are common. Indeed, their being common is much of the point, here.