I guess the point of humanity is to achieve as much prosperity as possible. Adversarial techniques help when competition improves our chances—helpful in physical activities, when groups compete, in markets generally. But in a conversation with someone your best bet to help humanity is to help them come around to your superior understanding, and adversarial conversation won’t achieve that.
The ideal strategy looks something like the best path along which you can lead them, where you can demonstrate to them they are wrong and they will believe you, which usually involves you demonstrating a very clear and comprehensive understanding, citing information, but doing it all in a way that seems collaborative.
Asking for specific examples is not a rhetorical device, it’s a tool for clear thinking. What I’m illustrating with Steve is a productive approach that raises the standard of discourse. IMO.
I’ve personally been in the Steve role many times: I used to hang out a lot with Anna Salamon when I was still new to LessWrong-style rationality, and I distinctly remember how I would make statements that Anna would then basically just ask me to clarify, and in attempting to do so I would realize I probably don’t have a coherent point, and this is what talking to a smarter person than me feels like. She was being empathetic and considerate to me like she always is, not adversarial at all, but it’s still accurate to say she demolished my arguments.
I believe that the thing which is making many of your commenters misinterpret the post is that you chose a political example for the dialogue. That gives people the (reasonable, as this is a common move) suspicion that you have a motive of attacking your political enemy while disguising it as rationality advice.
Even if they don’t think that, if they have any sympathies towards the side that you seem to be attacking, they will still feel it necessary to defend that side. To do otherwise would risk granting the implicit notion that the “Uber exploits its drivers” side would have no coherent arguments in general, regardless of whether or not you meant to send that message.
You mentioned that you have personal examples where Anna pointed out to you that your position was incoherently. Something like that would probably have been a better example to use: saying “here’s an example of how I made this mistake” won’t be suspected of having ulterior motives the way that “here’s an example of a mistake made by someone who I might reasonably be suspected to consider a political opponent” will.
Ahhh right, you got me, I was unnecessarily political! It didn’t pattern match to the kind of political arguing that I see in my bubble, but I get why anyone who feels skeptical or unhappy about Uber’s practices won’t be maximally receptive to learning about specificity using this example, and why even people who don’t have an opinion about Uber have expressed feeling “uncomfortable” with the example. Thanks!
At some point I may go back and replace with another example. I’m open to ideas.
I guess the point of humanity is to achieve as much prosperity as possible. Adversarial techniques help when competition improves our chances—helpful in physical activities, when groups compete, in markets generally. But in a conversation with someone your best bet to help humanity is to help them come around to your superior understanding, and adversarial conversation won’t achieve that.
The ideal strategy looks something like the best path along which you can lead them, where you can demonstrate to them they are wrong and they will believe you, which usually involves you demonstrating a very clear and comprehensive understanding, citing information, but doing it all in a way that seems collaborative.
Asking for specific examples is not a rhetorical device, it’s a tool for clear thinking. What I’m illustrating with Steve is a productive approach that raises the standard of discourse. IMO.
I’ve personally been in the Steve role many times: I used to hang out a lot with Anna Salamon when I was still new to LessWrong-style rationality, and I distinctly remember how I would make statements that Anna would then basically just ask me to clarify, and in attempting to do so I would realize I probably don’t have a coherent point, and this is what talking to a smarter person than me feels like. She was being empathetic and considerate to me like she always is, not adversarial at all, but it’s still accurate to say she demolished my arguments.
I believe that the thing which is making many of your commenters misinterpret the post is that you chose a political example for the dialogue. That gives people the (reasonable, as this is a common move) suspicion that you have a motive of attacking your political enemy while disguising it as rationality advice.
Even if they don’t think that, if they have any sympathies towards the side that you seem to be attacking, they will still feel it necessary to defend that side. To do otherwise would risk granting the implicit notion that the “Uber exploits its drivers” side would have no coherent arguments in general, regardless of whether or not you meant to send that message.
You mentioned that you have personal examples where Anna pointed out to you that your position was incoherently. Something like that would probably have been a better example to use: saying “here’s an example of how I made this mistake” won’t be suspected of having ulterior motives the way that “here’s an example of a mistake made by someone who I might reasonably be suspected to consider a political opponent” will.
Ahhh right, you got me, I was unnecessarily political! It didn’t pattern match to the kind of political arguing that I see in my bubble, but I get why anyone who feels skeptical or unhappy about Uber’s practices won’t be maximally receptive to learning about specificity using this example, and why even people who don’t have an opinion about Uber have expressed feeling “uncomfortable” with the example. Thanks!
At some point I may go back and replace with another example. I’m open to ideas.
Ok I finally made this edit. Wish I did it sooner!