Thanks, this is great and I unironically enjoyed reading it. (I personally wasn’t following HPMOR discourse back in the day. Maybe lots of people wrote lots of great critiques, but I wasn’t there then and didn’t read them, so I don’t already know all this stuff.)
As you already admitted, there are only a few actual questions here, but there are a few. When I get a chance I will attempt to extract the questions and see if I can get a response from Eliezer for you. Please do not hold your breath, it will be at least several days and possibly longer (or forever), because as I said, it’s a busy time.
As a partial illustration of how HPMOR could have been improved, I want to point to Following the Phoenix as an excellent alternative ending for the story (starting at the time of Hermione’s trial at the Wizengamot).
It’s not perfect, of course; and, in particular, the lore/worldbuilding has more contradictions and problems than HPMOR’s did (unsurprising, given it’s Eliezer’s world, so he knows its internal logic best). But, without spoiling anything, it solves several of the problems I have pointed to: the Harry/Quirrell conflict is organic and not artificially constructed, nobody holds the Idiot Ball,[1] Harry and Dumbledore and Hermione and many other characters actually do relevant stuff that becomes critical for the plot, and the ending is just… so fun and interesting and exciting compared to the one-flash-of-brilliant-thinking we got in chapter 114 of HPMOR.
HPMOR does have some problems, notably, the climax being overdetermined by the story that had it in mind but not living up to how well the story was executed; and also causing a sort of allergy in some people; but HPMOR is one of the coolest pieces of literature out there, with its ending still being great for the reasons awesome literature is great; Following the Phoenix is a nice piece of fanfiction, but it’s just that- fanfiction[1].
I think the conflict between Harry and Voldemort makes a huge ton less sense in that alternative ending. And there are straightforwardly terrible pieces of worldbuilding, characters being stupid, etc.; e.g., I don’t see how random muggles without gov authorization SENDING NUCLEAR MISSILES to Scotland could be related to the author not being aware of the internal logic of Eliezer’s world.
To be clear, it’s great if people enjoy it, but this is normal fanfiction with some fun parts; it is not on the level of interesting books, and definitely not at the level of HPMOR.
HPMOR is one of the coolest pieces of literature out there, with its ending still being great for the reasons awesome literature is great
Awesome literature is typically considered great for reasons such as:
great character arcs
multiple characters having agency and changing the outcome of the story through their actions
the conflicts between characters having at their root core fundamentally incompatible approaches to life, as opposed to external events forcing them to be at each other throats (“fiction isn’t about what happened, once; fiction is about what happens)
compelling writing
powerful themes that get reflected in the logic of the world being created
HPMOR fails at the first 3 for reasons I have explained in detail in my previous comment.
The writing is sometimes compelling, in moments where the Rule of Cool applies (the Dementors = Death scene, for example) and when there are action scenes (Azkaban, Chapter 104). But for the rest of it, dialogues are George Lucas-level stilted (“General of Chaos,” “Most Ancient House,” inappropriate half-baked jargon-dense explanations of Intro to Psych experiments, etc.), and the story is extremely long and slow-moving, with a very low density of plot-relevant events per word count. HPMOR is as long as the first 5 Harry Potter books combined, but covers significantly fewer plot points, and persistently analyzes and re-analyzes every event that happens from all possible angles. It’s quantity over quality, magnified to the 3rd power.
HPMOR has interesting themes, but the way it approaches them (for reasons reflected both in my writing and in the explanations given by the two reviewers I linked in my previous comment) is badly flawed.
What the book does do right is world-building.[1] And that’s fine. Some people care a lot more about this than about all the other stuff I’ve mentioned. And as I wrote above, those people are typically considered “nerds” in pop culture. I won’t begrudge nerds for liking their nerd power fantasy, since taste is mostly subjective, but comparing it to the rest of great “literature” necessarily brings in other standards of what counts as proper fiction.
And there are straightforwardly terrible pieces of worldbuilding, characters being stupid, etc
Yeah, it’s not a perfect story. But it seems to me that this type of stuff happens far less than in the original HPMOR (as I have documented in my previous comment).
Following the Phoenix is a nice piece of fanfiction, but it’s just that- fanfiction
So is HPMOR. Not just denotatively (obviously it’s HP fanfic), but also in the sense that Eliezer determined what he wanted to write by reading other HP fanfic, not by reading the original books. It’s doubly fanfiction, even!
At least when it comes to the impersonal rules of magic (Time-Turners, Dementors, Transfiguration, the Philosopher’s Stone, the Interdict of Merlin, etc. all make much more sense and have a significantly tighter internal logic than in other HP stories, including the originals). The societal structures and organizations that are part of HPMOR make no sense and members of them merely act as NPC foils for our protagonist
Not even arguing with these points, I am sure there is a lot of acclaimed literature that tells stories where nothing happens or characters have no agency or change little. One might enjoy the writing for many different reasons; literature can be great even if you don’t see something you enjoy in it.
The moments that stood out to me in HPMOR were not those of action. HPMOR teaches its readers to want to think better; and makes them value life. Our children’s children’s children won’t learn that Death once existed on the ancient Earth until they’re old enough to bear that. That sort of thing. There are also scenes of well-crafted comedy and of stargazing and of doing the impossible; there are beautifully executed plots and more Easter eggs than you imagine.
One of the quotes I use to sell the idea of reading HPMOR to people is one of a literary critic who says she distinguishes HPMOR from all other fanfiction and thinks everyone should read it.
Literature is not often crafted the way HPMOR was crafted. There are moments of appreciation of what the author did there, which are rare in books; and HPMOR is full of that.
Even without the whole thing of making people more culturally rationalist, the book is great just because it’s an awesome piece of fiction.
Thanks, this is great and I unironically enjoyed reading it. (I personally wasn’t following HPMOR discourse back in the day. Maybe lots of people wrote lots of great critiques, but I wasn’t there then and didn’t read them, so I don’t already know all this stuff.)
As you already admitted, there are only a few actual questions here, but there are a few. When I get a chance I will attempt to extract the questions and see if I can get a response from Eliezer for you. Please do not hold your breath, it will be at least several days and possibly longer (or forever), because as I said, it’s a busy time.
But I do appreciate you writing this up, thanks.
As a partial illustration of how HPMOR could have been improved, I want to point to Following the Phoenix as an excellent alternative ending for the story (starting at the time of Hermione’s trial at the Wizengamot).
It’s not perfect, of course; and, in particular, the lore/worldbuilding has more contradictions and problems than HPMOR’s did (unsurprising, given it’s Eliezer’s world, so he knows its internal logic best). But, without spoiling anything, it solves several of the problems I have pointed to: the Harry/Quirrell conflict is organic and not artificially constructed, nobody holds the Idiot Ball,[1] Harry and Dumbledore and Hermione and many other characters actually do relevant stuff that becomes critical for the plot, and the ending is just… so fun and interesting and exciting compared to the one-flash-of-brilliant-thinking we got in chapter 114 of HPMOR.
Not even the side that ends up losing! It’s quite remarkable in that way
HPMOR does have some problems, notably, the climax being overdetermined by the story that had it in mind but not living up to how well the story was executed; and also causing a sort of allergy in some people; but HPMOR is one of the coolest pieces of literature out there, with its ending still being great for the reasons awesome literature is great; Following the Phoenix is a nice piece of fanfiction, but it’s just that- fanfiction[1].
I think the conflict between Harry and Voldemort makes a huge ton less sense in that alternative ending. And there are straightforwardly terrible pieces of worldbuilding, characters being stupid, etc.; e.g., I don’t see how random muggles without gov authorization SENDING NUCLEAR MISSILES to Scotland could be related to the author not being aware of the internal logic of Eliezer’s world.
To be clear, it’s great if people enjoy it, but this is normal fanfiction with some fun parts; it is not on the level of interesting books, and definitely not at the level of HPMOR.
Awesome literature is typically considered great for reasons such as:
great character arcs
multiple characters having agency and changing the outcome of the story through their actions
the conflicts between characters having at their root core fundamentally incompatible approaches to life, as opposed to external events forcing them to be at each other throats (“fiction isn’t about what happened, once; fiction is about what happens)
compelling writing
powerful themes that get reflected in the logic of the world being created
HPMOR fails at the first 3 for reasons I have explained in detail in my previous comment.
The writing is sometimes compelling, in moments where the Rule of Cool applies (the Dementors = Death scene, for example) and when there are action scenes (Azkaban, Chapter 104). But for the rest of it, dialogues are George Lucas-level stilted (“General of Chaos,” “Most Ancient House,” inappropriate half-baked jargon-dense explanations of Intro to Psych experiments, etc.), and the story is extremely long and slow-moving, with a very low density of plot-relevant events per word count. HPMOR is as long as the first 5 Harry Potter books combined, but covers significantly fewer plot points, and persistently analyzes and re-analyzes every event that happens from all possible angles. It’s quantity over quality, magnified to the 3rd power.
HPMOR has interesting themes, but the way it approaches them (for reasons reflected both in my writing and in the explanations given by the two reviewers I linked in my previous comment) is badly flawed.
What the book does do right is world-building.[1] And that’s fine. Some people care a lot more about this than about all the other stuff I’ve mentioned. And as I wrote above, those people are typically considered “nerds” in pop culture. I won’t begrudge nerds for liking their nerd power fantasy, since taste is mostly subjective, but comparing it to the rest of great “literature” necessarily brings in other standards of what counts as proper fiction.
Yeah, it’s not a perfect story. But it seems to me that this type of stuff happens far less than in the original HPMOR (as I have documented in my previous comment).
So is HPMOR. Not just denotatively (obviously it’s HP fanfic), but also in the sense that Eliezer determined what he wanted to write by reading other HP fanfic, not by reading the original books. It’s doubly fanfiction, even!
At least when it comes to the impersonal rules of magic (Time-Turners, Dementors, Transfiguration, the Philosopher’s Stone, the Interdict of Merlin, etc. all make much more sense and have a significantly tighter internal logic than in other HP stories, including the originals). The societal structures and organizations that are part of HPMOR make no sense and members of them merely act as NPC foils for our protagonist
Not even arguing with these points, I am sure there is a lot of acclaimed literature that tells stories where nothing happens or characters have no agency or change little. One might enjoy the writing for many different reasons; literature can be great even if you don’t see something you enjoy in it.
The moments that stood out to me in HPMOR were not those of action. HPMOR teaches its readers to want to think better; and makes them value life. Our children’s children’s children won’t learn that Death once existed on the ancient Earth until they’re old enough to bear that. That sort of thing. There are also scenes of well-crafted comedy and of stargazing and of doing the impossible; there are beautifully executed plots and more Easter eggs than you imagine.
One of the quotes I use to sell the idea of reading HPMOR to people is one of a literary critic who says she distinguishes HPMOR from all other fanfiction and thinks everyone should read it.
Literature is not often crafted the way HPMOR was crafted. There are moments of appreciation of what the author did there, which are rare in books; and HPMOR is full of that.
Even without the whole thing of making people more culturally rationalist, the book is great just because it’s an awesome piece of fiction.