One of the people criticizing the letter accused the letter writer of privileging the hypothesis—that it’s only because of historical contingency (i.e. racism) that someone would decide to carve reality between “African-Americans” and “whites” instead of, say, “people with brown eyes” and “people with blue eyes”. (She didn’t use that exact phrase, but it’s what she meant.)
Isn’t nearly everything a social construct though? We can divide people based into two groups, those with university degrees and those without. People with them may tend to live longer or die earlier, they may earn more money or earn less, ect. We may also divide people into groups based on self identification, do blondes really have more fun than brunettes or do hipsters really feel superior to nonhipsters or do religious people have lower IQs than self-identified atheists ect
Concepts like species, subspecies and family are also constructs that are just about as arbitrary as race.
I dosen’t really matter in the end. Regardless of how we carve up reality, we can then proceed to ask questions and get answers. Suppose we decided to in 1900 take a global test to see whether blue eyed or brown eyed people have higher IQs. Lo and behold we see brown eyed people have higher IQs. But in 2050 the reverse is true. What happened? The population with brown eyes was heterogeneous and its demographics changed! However if we took skin cancer rates we would still see people with blue eyes have higher rates of skin cancer in both periods.
So why should we bother carving up reality on this racial metric and ask questions about it? For the same reason we bother to carve up reality on the family or gender metric. We base policy on it. If society was colour blind, there would be no need for this. But I hope everyone here can see that society isn’t colour blind.
For example Affirmative action’s ethical status (which is currently framed as a nesecary adjustment against biases and not reparations for past wrongs) depends on what the data has to about say about group differences.
If the data shows we people with blue eyes in our country have lower mean IQs when controlling for socioeconomic status and such, we shouldn’t be accusing racism for their higher college drop out rates if the rates are what is to be expected when controlling for IQs. To keep this policy would mean to discriminate against competent brown eyed people. But if there are no difference well then the policy is justified unless it turns out there is another reason that has nothing to do with discrimination behind it.
I hope that you however agree that (regardless of what the truth of this particular matter is) someone should not be vilified for asking questions or proposing hypothesises regarding social constructs we have in place, regularly operate with and even make quantifiable claims about.
I just want to clear up that I’m refering to species and subspecies in the biological sense in that sentence and family in the ordinary every day sense not to the category between order and genus.
For example Affirmative action’s ethical status (which is currently framed as a nesecary adjustment against biases and not reparations for past wrongs) depends on what the data has to about say about group differences.
Only if you accept that particular framing, I would have thought? If one chooses to justify affirmative action as reparations for past wrongs, ‘what the data has to about say about group differences’ won’t change your opinion of affirmative action.
Of course one can do this. But then you get into the sticky issue of why should we group reparations based on race? Aren’t the Chatolic Irish entitled to reparations for their mistreatment as immigrant labour and discrimination against them based on their religion if the same is true of the Chinese? Aren’t Native Americans a bit more entitled to reparations than say Indian immigrants? Also why are African Americans descended from slaves not differenciated to those who have migrated to the US a generation ago (after the civil rights era)?
And how long should such reparations be payed? Indefinetly?
I hope that from the above you can see why there would need to be a new debate on affirmative action if one reframes it.
I don’t believe affirmative action is justified by ‘past wrongs’ - I used that as an example only because you mentioned it. (Personally, I believe it makes more sense to justify affirmative action as a device to offset present disadvantages.) I meant only to make the point that the statement ‘Affirmative action’s ethical status...depends on what the data has to about say about group differences’ is too broad, because there are justifications for affirmative action that do not hinge on the nature of IQ differences between blacks and whites.
I wrote affirmative action as it is currently framed. I consider that an important distinction. I never denied other frames where possible, I’m just saying the current support for affirmative action amongst groups that are harmed by it is loosly based on the notion that it is offseting unwaranted privilige (bias by employers in other words) of the majority.
I think we both agree that ‘what the data has to about say about group differences’ does not necessarily affect ‘Affirmative action’s ethical status’ in general—only if one justifies it on grounds that make assumptions about the nature of IQ differences between groups. That just wasn’t clear to me as of four days ago due to your phrasing.
Black people routinely outperform whites at elite running events, Asians already rule at math and science, so the hypothesis that there are genetic differences in performance between blacks and whites is already something one should consider likely.
IAWYC, but “Asians rule at math and science” seems to have a huge cultural basis, and it’s at least no more obvious that it has a genetic component than that racial IQ gaps do.
To someone who knows that Asian math achievement has a fully or almost fully cultural basis, the Asian math link doesn’t do work privileging the hypothesis that there might be a black/white genetic IQ difference.
However, to someone who simply sees math classes full of people with yellow skin, and doesn’t know why, it does do work privileging the hypothesis that there might be a black/white genetic IQ difference, rather that e.g. anti-black discrimination causing lower grades for blacks etc.
Of course, if you saw Asian-filled math classes, there must have already been something that made you assign some probability to the hypothesis that genes, not memes were responsible.
and it’s at least no more obvious that it has a genetic component than that racial IQ gaps do.
I don’t think it has to be more obvious or clear-cut, it moves you evidentially by simply being another instance of the same thing.
If the only racial-feature correlation in the world was that black people tested low on IQ, then the idea that genes rather than, say, discrimination were responsible would be something of a stretch.
But when you see a whole collection of racial-feature correlations, the idea that genes are responsible to some extent becomes more plausible. It is a reasonable AI/machine learning heuristic to jump from co-variation to some kind of causal link: if you see skin color (which is well known to indicate DNA-type) covary with ability at sport, ability at math, ability at IQ tests, criminality, etc, you place some weight on the hypothesis that DNA directly causally influences these things. Of course, you don’t put all of your weight on that.
Can you explain how you know Asian math acheivement is fully due to cultural bias?
Haven’t crossracial adpotion studies shown that adopted East Asian children do better than their white peers on IQ tests? I also remember hearing claims that generally Asians do beter on the visualspatial component of IQ tests than whites.
I think it would be fascinating if people with blue eyes were more or less intelligent, when controlling for the variables, than people with brown eyes.
That said, I would expect a larger genetic variation when choosing between long-separated and isolated populations rather than eye colors.
I’m using eye color as an example here since CronoDAS mentioned it. Replace it with a particular gene, future time orientation, nose type or whatever. If society makes quantifiable claims about a particular category into which we slice up reality (ie Atheists are more likley to rape and murder!) an individual should have the right to either test or demand proof for this quantifiable claim.
Race is a pretty good proxy form which populations your ancestors came from. Its not perfect since for example the Black race has the most genetic diversity and geneflow has increased after the rise of civilization and especially globalisation. Knowing however, whether for example most of your ancestors lived outside of Africa for the last 60,000 thousand years or that your group of ancestors diverged from the other guys group of ancestors 40,000 thousand years ago is also relevant info.
I stole this graph from Razib’s site (gene expression) for a quick reference of what current biology has to say about ancestral populations.
One of the people criticizing the letter accused the letter writer of privileging the hypothesis—that it’s only because of historical contingency (i.e. racism) that someone would decide to carve reality between “African-Americans” and “whites” instead of, say, “people with brown eyes” and “people with blue eyes”. (She didn’t use that exact phrase, but it’s what she meant.)
Isn’t nearly everything a social construct though? We can divide people based into two groups, those with university degrees and those without. People with them may tend to live longer or die earlier, they may earn more money or earn less, ect. We may also divide people into groups based on self identification, do blondes really have more fun than brunettes or do hipsters really feel superior to nonhipsters or do religious people have lower IQs than self-identified atheists ect Concepts like species, subspecies and family are also constructs that are just about as arbitrary as race.
I dosen’t really matter in the end. Regardless of how we carve up reality, we can then proceed to ask questions and get answers. Suppose we decided to in 1900 take a global test to see whether blue eyed or brown eyed people have higher IQs. Lo and behold we see brown eyed people have higher IQs. But in 2050 the reverse is true. What happened? The population with brown eyes was heterogeneous and its demographics changed! However if we took skin cancer rates we would still see people with blue eyes have higher rates of skin cancer in both periods.
So why should we bother carving up reality on this racial metric and ask questions about it? For the same reason we bother to carve up reality on the family or gender metric. We base policy on it. If society was colour blind, there would be no need for this. But I hope everyone here can see that society isn’t colour blind.
For example Affirmative action’s ethical status (which is currently framed as a nesecary adjustment against biases and not reparations for past wrongs) depends on what the data has to about say about group differences.
If the data shows we people with blue eyes in our country have lower mean IQs when controlling for socioeconomic status and such, we shouldn’t be accusing racism for their higher college drop out rates if the rates are what is to be expected when controlling for IQs. To keep this policy would mean to discriminate against competent brown eyed people. But if there are no difference well then the policy is justified unless it turns out there is another reason that has nothing to do with discrimination behind it.
I hope that you however agree that (regardless of what the truth of this particular matter is) someone should not be vilified for asking questions or proposing hypothesises regarding social constructs we have in place, regularly operate with and even make quantifiable claims about.
This is a matter of much dispute and a lot of confusion. See here.
I wondered how humans are grouped, so I got some genes from the world, and did an eigenvalue analysis, and this is what i found:
http://kim.oyhus.no/EigenGenes.html
As you can see, humans are indeed clustered in subspecies.
This doesn’t demonstrate subspecies.
Thanks for the link, I’m reading it now.
I just want to clear up that I’m refering to species and subspecies in the biological sense in that sentence and family in the ordinary every day sense not to the category between order and genus.
Only if you accept that particular framing, I would have thought? If one chooses to justify affirmative action as reparations for past wrongs, ‘what the data has to about say about group differences’ won’t change your opinion of affirmative action.
(ETA—Also.)
Of course one can do this. But then you get into the sticky issue of why should we group reparations based on race? Aren’t the Chatolic Irish entitled to reparations for their mistreatment as immigrant labour and discrimination against them based on their religion if the same is true of the Chinese? Aren’t Native Americans a bit more entitled to reparations than say Indian immigrants? Also why are African Americans descended from slaves not differenciated to those who have migrated to the US a generation ago (after the civil rights era)?
And how long should such reparations be payed? Indefinetly?
I hope that from the above you can see why there would need to be a new debate on affirmative action if one reframes it.
I don’t believe affirmative action is justified by ‘past wrongs’ - I used that as an example only because you mentioned it. (Personally, I believe it makes more sense to justify affirmative action as a device to offset present disadvantages.) I meant only to make the point that the statement ‘Affirmative action’s ethical status...depends on what the data has to about say about group differences’ is too broad, because there are justifications for affirmative action that do not hinge on the nature of IQ differences between blacks and whites.
I wrote affirmative action as it is currently framed. I consider that an important distinction. I never denied other frames where possible, I’m just saying the current support for affirmative action amongst groups that are harmed by it is loosly based on the notion that it is offseting unwaranted privilige (bias by employers in other words) of the majority.
I think we both agree that ‘what the data has to about say about group differences’ does not necessarily affect ‘Affirmative action’s ethical status’ in general—only if one justifies it on grounds that make assumptions about the nature of IQ differences between groups. That just wasn’t clear to me as of four days ago due to your phrasing.
I didn’t say I agreed.
I never said you did. :) Would you however agree with the sentiment of my last paragraph?
This thread of conversation is easily derailed since whether group differences exist isn’t really its topic.
Yeah, I do...
Black people routinely outperform whites at elite running events, Asians already rule at math and science, so the hypothesis that there are genetic differences in performance between blacks and whites is already something one should consider likely.
IAWYC, but “Asians rule at math and science” seems to have a huge cultural basis, and it’s at least no more obvious that it has a genetic component than that racial IQ gaps do.
To someone who knows that Asian math achievement has a fully or almost fully cultural basis, the Asian math link doesn’t do work privileging the hypothesis that there might be a black/white genetic IQ difference.
However, to someone who simply sees math classes full of people with yellow skin, and doesn’t know why, it does do work privileging the hypothesis that there might be a black/white genetic IQ difference, rather that e.g. anti-black discrimination causing lower grades for blacks etc.
Of course, if you saw Asian-filled math classes, there must have already been something that made you assign some probability to the hypothesis that genes, not memes were responsible.
I don’t think it has to be more obvious or clear-cut, it moves you evidentially by simply being another instance of the same thing.
If the only racial-feature correlation in the world was that black people tested low on IQ, then the idea that genes rather than, say, discrimination were responsible would be something of a stretch.
But when you see a whole collection of racial-feature correlations, the idea that genes are responsible to some extent becomes more plausible. It is a reasonable AI/machine learning heuristic to jump from co-variation to some kind of causal link: if you see skin color (which is well known to indicate DNA-type) covary with ability at sport, ability at math, ability at IQ tests, criminality, etc, you place some weight on the hypothesis that DNA directly causally influences these things. Of course, you don’t put all of your weight on that.
@Nick Tarleton:
Can you explain how you know Asian math acheivement is fully due to cultural bias? Haven’t crossracial adpotion studies shown that adopted East Asian children do better than their white peers on IQ tests? I also remember hearing claims that generally Asians do beter on the visualspatial component of IQ tests than whites.
Edit: Originally adressed @Roko
Nick Tarleton said it, not me ;-)
I have not seen evidence either way; my arguments given above are not dependent upon it being true or false.
I misread the first sentence. Thanks for the correction, I’ll put a @Nick Tarleton in there then.
I think it would be fascinating if people with blue eyes were more or less intelligent, when controlling for the variables, than people with brown eyes.
That said, I would expect a larger genetic variation when choosing between long-separated and isolated populations rather than eye colors.
I’m using eye color as an example here since CronoDAS mentioned it. Replace it with a particular gene, future time orientation, nose type or whatever. If society makes quantifiable claims about a particular category into which we slice up reality (ie Atheists are more likley to rape and murder!) an individual should have the right to either test or demand proof for this quantifiable claim.
Race is a pretty good proxy form which populations your ancestors came from. Its not perfect since for example the Black race has the most genetic diversity and geneflow has increased after the rise of civilization and especially globalisation. Knowing however, whether for example most of your ancestors lived outside of Africa for the last 60,000 thousand years or that your group of ancestors diverged from the other guys group of ancestors 40,000 thousand years ago is also relevant info.
I stole this graph from Razib’s site (gene expression) for a quick reference of what current biology has to say about ancestral populations.
http://www.gnxp.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/PIIS096098220902065X.gr2_.lrg_.jpg