So… voicing disagreement boldly is trolling, voicing it nervously is trolling and trying to prevent being called out. Signalling distance from the group is trolling and accusations of hive mind, signalling group membership is trolling and going “Seriously, I’m one of you guys”. Joking about the image a group idea’s have, in the same way the group itself does, is straw-manning and caricature, seriously worrying about those ideas is damsel-in-distress crap.
Okay, so I see the bits that are protection against being called a troll. What I don’t see is the trolling. Is it “I’m a Christian”? If you think all Christians should pretend to be atheists… well, 500 responses disagree with you. Is it what you call straw men? I read those as jokes about what we look like to outsiders, but even if they’re sincere, they’re surrounded with so much display of uncertainty that “No, that’s not what we think.” should end it then and there. And if AspiringKnitter where a troll, why would she stop trolling and write good posts right after that?
Conclusion: You fail the principle of charity forever. You’re a jerk. I hope you run out of milk next time you want to eat cereal.
So… voicing disagreement boldly is trolling, voicing it nervously is trolling and trying to prevent being called out. Signalling distance from the group is trolling and accusations of hive mind, signalling group membership is trolling and going “Seriously, I’m one of you guys”. Joking about the image a group idea’s have, in the same way the group itself does, is straw-manning and caricature, seriously worrying about those ideas is damsel-in-distress crap.
Deliberate, active straw manning sarcasm for the purpose of giving insult and conveying contempt.
What I don’t see is the trolling.
Yes, trolling is distinguished from what nyan called “troll-bait” by, for most part, duration. Trolls don’t stop picking fights and seem to thrive on the conflict they provoke. If nyan tried to claim that AspiringKnitter was a troll in general—and fail to update on the evidence from after this comment—he would most certainly be wrong.
Conclusion: You fail the principle of charity forever.
He wasn’t very charitable in his comment, I certainly would have phrased criticism differently (and directed most of it at those encouraging damsel in distress crap.) But for your part you haven’t failed the principle of charity—you have failed to parse language correctly and respond to the meaning contained therein.
You’re a jerk. I hope you run out of milk next time you want to eat cereal.
You’re a jerk. I hope you run out of milk next time you want to eat cereal.
This is not ok.
The cereal thing is comically mild. The impulse to wish bad things on others is a pretty strong one and I think it’s moderated by having an outlet to acknowledge that it’s silly in this or maybe some other way—I’d rather people publicly wish me to run out of milk than privately wish me dead.
The cereal thing is comically mild. The impulse to wish bad things on others is a pretty strong one and I think it’s moderated by having an outlet to acknowledge that it’s silly in this or maybe some other way
Calling nyan a jerk in that context wasn’t ok with me and nor was any joke about wanting harm to come upon him. It was unjustified and inappropriate.
I’d rather people publicly wish me to run out of milk than privately wish me dead.
I don’t much care what MixedNuts wants to happen to nyan. The quoted combination of words constitutes a status transaction of a kind I would see discouraged. Particularly given that we don’t allow reciprocal personal banter of the kind this sort insult demands. If, for example, nyan responded with a pun on a keyword and a reference to Mixed’s sister we wouldn’t allow it. When insults cannot be returned in kind the buck stops with the first personal insult. That is, Mixed’s.
[emphasis mine]. You assume that nyan is male. Where did “he” say that? nyan explicitly claims to be a “genderless internet being” in the introductions thread.
Last LW survey came out with 95% male, IIRC. 95% sure of something is quite strong. nyan called Aspiring_Knitter a troll on much less solid evidence. Also, you come from the unfortunate position of not having workable genderless pronouns.
[emphasis mine]. You assume that nyan is male. Where did “he” say that? nyan explicitly claims to be a “genderless internet being” in the introductions thread.
That’s fair. I used male because you sounded more like a male—and still do. If you are a genderless internet being then I will henceforth refer to you as an ‘it’. If you were a genderless human I would use the letter ‘v’ followed by whatever letters seem to fit the context.
I’d rather people publicly wish me to run out of milk than privately wish me dead.
Well, who knows what MixedNuts’ wishes? Wishing wedrifid runs out of milk doesn’t exclude this latter possibility.
I’m also reminded, of all the silly things, (the overwhelmingly irrational) Simone Weil:
If someone does me an injury I must desire that this injury shall not degrade me. I must desire this out of love for him who inflicts it, in order that he may not really have done evil.
Delicious controversy. Yum. I might have a lulz-relapse and become a troll.
So… voicing disagreement boldly is trolling, voicing it nervously is trolling and trying to prevent being called out. Signalling distance from the group is trolling and accusations of hive mind, signalling group membership is trolling and going “Seriously, I’m one of you guys”. Joking about the image a group idea’s have, in the same way the group itself does, is straw-manning and caricature, seriously worrying about those ideas is damsel-in-distress crap.
Burn the witch!
Disagreement is not trolling. Neither is nervous disagreement. The hivemind thing had nothing to do with status signaling, it was about the readers insecurity. The group membership/cultural knowledge signaling thing is almost always used as a delivery vector for a ignoble payload.
They didn’t look like jokes or uncertainty to me. I am suddenly gripped by a mortal fear that I may not have a sense of humor. The damsel in distress thing was unconnected to the ideas thing.
TL;DR: what wedrifid said.
Okay, so I see the bits that are protection against being called a troll. What I don’t see is the trolling. Is it “I’m a Christian”? If you think all Christians should pretend to be atheists… well, 500 responses disagree with you. Is it what you call straw men? I read those as jokes about what we look like to outsiders, but even if they’re sincere, they’re surrounded with so much display of uncertainty that “No, that’s not what we think.” should end it then and there. And if AspiringKnitter where a troll, why would she stop trolling and write good posts right after that?
Again, they still don’t look like jokes. If everyone else decides they were jokes, I will upmod my belief that I am a humorless internet srs-taker. EDIT: oh I forgot to address the AS is not troll claim. It has been observed, in the long history of the internet, that sometimes a person skilled in the trolling arts will post a masterfully crafted troll-bait, and then decide to forsake their lulzy crusade for unknown reasons. /EDIT
I hope you run out of milk next time you want to eat cereal.
Joke is on you. nyan_sandwich″s human alter-ego doesn’t eat cereal.
nyan_sandwich may have been stricken with a minor case of confirmation bias when they made that assessment, but I think it still stands.
So… voicing disagreement boldly is trolling, voicing it nervously is trolling and trying to prevent being called out. Signalling distance from the group is trolling and accusations of hive mind, signalling group membership is trolling and going “Seriously, I’m one of you guys”. Joking about the image a group idea’s have, in the same way the group itself does, is straw-manning and caricature, seriously worrying about those ideas is damsel-in-distress crap.
Okay, so I see the bits that are protection against being called a troll. What I don’t see is the trolling. Is it “I’m a Christian”? If you think all Christians should pretend to be atheists… well, 500 responses disagree with you. Is it what you call straw men? I read those as jokes about what we look like to outsiders, but even if they’re sincere, they’re surrounded with so much display of uncertainty that “No, that’s not what we think.” should end it then and there. And if AspiringKnitter where a troll, why would she stop trolling and write good posts right after that?
Conclusion: You fail the principle of charity forever. You’re a jerk. I hope you run out of milk next time you want to eat cereal.
Deliberate, active straw manning sarcasm for the purpose of giving insult and conveying contempt.
Yes, trolling is distinguished from what nyan called “troll-bait” by, for most part, duration. Trolls don’t stop picking fights and seem to thrive on the conflict they provoke. If nyan tried to claim that AspiringKnitter was a troll in general—and fail to update on the evidence from after this comment—he would most certainly be wrong.
He wasn’t very charitable in his comment, I certainly would have phrased criticism differently (and directed most of it at those encouraging damsel in distress crap.) But for your part you haven’t failed the principle of charity—you have failed to parse language correctly and respond to the meaning contained therein.
This is not ok.
The cereal thing is comically mild. The impulse to wish bad things on others is a pretty strong one and I think it’s moderated by having an outlet to acknowledge that it’s silly in this or maybe some other way—I’d rather people publicly wish me to run out of milk than privately wish me dead.
Calling nyan a jerk in that context wasn’t ok with me and nor was any joke about wanting harm to come upon him. It was unjustified and inappropriate.
I don’t much care what MixedNuts wants to happen to nyan. The quoted combination of words constitutes a status transaction of a kind I would see discouraged. Particularly given that we don’t allow reciprocal personal banter of the kind this sort insult demands. If, for example, nyan responded with a pun on a keyword and a reference to Mixed’s sister we wouldn’t allow it. When insults cannot be returned in kind the buck stops with the first personal insult. That is, Mixed’s.
This is admirably compelling.
Upvoted.
I am happy that someone other than me gets upset when they see these “jokes” on here.
(I also downvoted the “jerk” comment)
[emphasis mine]. You assume that nyan is male. Where did “he” say that? nyan explicitly claims to be a “genderless internet being” in the introductions thread.
Last LW survey came out with 95% male, IIRC. 95% sure of something is quite strong. nyan called Aspiring_Knitter a troll on much less solid evidence. Also, you come from the unfortunate position of not having workable genderless pronouns.
I’ll allow it.
That’s fair. I used male because you sounded more like a male—and still do. If you are a genderless internet being then I will henceforth refer to you as an ‘it’. If you were a genderless human I would use the letter ‘v’ followed by whatever letters seem to fit the context.
I wished nyan_sandwich to stub eir toe, but immediately regretted it as too harsh.
Well, who knows what MixedNuts’ wishes? Wishing wedrifid runs out of milk doesn’t exclude this latter possibility.
I’m also reminded, of all the silly things, (the overwhelmingly irrational) Simone Weil:
Everyone does, because I said it!
Delicious controversy. Yum. I might have a lulz-relapse and become a troll.
Burn the witch!
Disagreement is not trolling. Neither is nervous disagreement. The hivemind thing had nothing to do with status signaling, it was about the readers insecurity. The group membership/cultural knowledge signaling thing is almost always used as a delivery vector for a ignoble payload.
They didn’t look like jokes or uncertainty to me. I am suddenly gripped by a mortal fear that I may not have a sense of humor. The damsel in distress thing was unconnected to the ideas thing.
TL;DR: what wedrifid said.
Again, they still don’t look like jokes. If everyone else decides they were jokes, I will upmod my belief that I am a humorless internet srs-taker. EDIT: oh I forgot to address the AS is not troll claim. It has been observed, in the long history of the internet, that sometimes a person skilled in the trolling arts will post a masterfully crafted troll-bait, and then decide to forsake their lulzy crusade for unknown reasons. /EDIT
Joke is on you. nyan_sandwich″s human alter-ego doesn’t eat cereal.
nyan_sandwich may have been stricken with a minor case of confirmation bias when they made that assessment, but I think it still stands.