I feel like being sarcastic here, but I remembered the inferential distance, so I’ll try not to. There’s a difference between a human, whose extreme vulnerability to corruption has been extensively demonstrated, and who doesn’t know everything, and may or may not love me enough to die for me… and God, who is incorruptible, knows all and has been demonstrated already to love me enough to die and go to hell for me. This bothers me a lot less than an omniscient person without God’s character.
I realize that theological debate has a pretty tenuous connection to the changing of minds, but sometimes one is just in the mood.…
Suppose that tonight I lay I minefield all around your house. In the morning, I tell you the minefield is there. Then I send my child to walk through it. My kid gets blown up, but this shows you a safe path out of your house and allows you to go about your business. If I then suggest that you should express your gratitude to me everyday for the rest of your life, would you think that reasonable?.… According to your theology, was hell not created by God?
(God has also demonstrated a respect for human free will that surpasses his desire for humans not to suffer, making it very unlikely he’d modify a human against the human’s will.)
I once asked my best friend, who is a devout evangelical, how he could be sure that the words of the Bible as we have it today are correct, given the many iterations of transcription it must have gone through. According to him, God’s general policy of noninterference in free will didn’t preclude divinely inspiring the writers of the Bible to trancribe it inerrantly. At least according to one thesist’s account, then, God was willing to interfere as long it was something really important for man’s salvation. And even if you don’t agree with that particular interpretation, I’d like to hear your explanation how the points at which God “hardened Pharaoh’s heart”, for example, don’t amount to interfering with free will.
I have nothing to say to your first point because I need to think that over and study the relevant theology (I never considered that God made hell and now I need to ascertain whether he did before I respond or even think about responding, a question complicated by being unsure of what hell is). With regard to your second point, however, I must cordially disagree with anyone who espouses the complete inerrancy of all versions of the Bible. (I must disagree less cordially with anyone who espouses the inerrancy of only the King James Version.) I thought it was common knowledge that the King James Version suffered from poor translation and the Vulgate was corrupt. A quick glance at the disagreements even among ancient manuscripts could tell you that.
I suppose if I complain about people with illogical beliefs making Christianity look bad, you’ll think it’s a joke...
I never considered that God made hell and now I need to ascertain whether he did before I respond or even think about responding, a question complicated by being unsure of what hell is
I don’t really have a dog in this race. That said, Matthew 25:41 seems to point in that direction, although “prepared” is perhaps a little weaker than “made”. It does seem to imply control and deliberate choice.
That’s the first passage that comes to mind, anyway. There’s not a whole lot on Hell in the Bible; most of the traditions associated with it are part of folk as opposed to textual Christianity, or are derived from essentially fanfictional works like Dante’s or Milton’s.
The more general problem, of course, is that if you don’t believe in textual inerrancy (of whatever version of the Bible you happen to prefer), you still aren’t relying on God to decide which parts are correct.
As Prismattic said, if you discard inerrancy, you run into the problem of classifications. How do you know which parts of the Bible are literally true, which are metaphorical, and which have been superseded by the newer parts ?
I would also add that our material world contains many things that, while they aren’t as bad as Hell, are still pretty bad. For example, most animals eat each other alive in order to survive (some insects do so in truly terrifying ways); viruses and bacteria ravage huge swaths of the population, human, animal and plant alike; natural disasters routinely cause death and suffering on the global scale, etc. Did God create all these things, as well ?
That’s not a very good argument. “If you accept some parts are metaphorical, how do you know which are?” is, but if you only accept transcription and translation errors, you just treat it like any other historical document.
My bad; for some reason I thought that when AK said,
I must cordially disagree with anyone who espouses the complete inerrancy of all versions of the Bible.
She meant that some parts of the Bible are not meant to be taken literally, but on second reading, it’s obvious that she is only referring to transcription and translation errors, like you said. I stand corrected.
I thought it was common knowledge that the King James Version suffered from poor translation and the Vulgate was corrupt.
Well, that really depends on what your translation criteria are. :) Reading KJV and, say, NIV side-by-side is like hearing Handel in one ear and Creed in the other.
I realize that theological debate has a pretty tenuous connection to the changing of minds, but sometimes one is just in the mood....
When I feel the urge, I go to r/debatereligion. The standards of debate aren’t as high as they are here, of course; but I don’t have to feel guilty about lowering them.
I realize that theological debate has a pretty tenuous connection to the changing of minds, but sometimes one is just in the mood.…
Suppose that tonight I lay I minefield all around your house. In the morning, I tell you the minefield is there. Then I send my child to walk through it. My kid gets blown up, but this shows you a safe path out of your house and allows you to go about your business. If I then suggest that you should express your gratitude to me everyday for the rest of your life, would you think that reasonable?.… According to your theology, was hell not created by God?
I once asked my best friend, who is a devout evangelical, how he could be sure that the words of the Bible as we have it today are correct, given the many iterations of transcription it must have gone through. According to him, God’s general policy of noninterference in free will didn’t preclude divinely inspiring the writers of the Bible to trancribe it inerrantly. At least according to one thesist’s account, then, God was willing to interfere as long it was something really important for man’s salvation. And even if you don’t agree with that particular interpretation, I’d like to hear your explanation how the points at which God “hardened Pharaoh’s heart”, for example, don’t amount to interfering with free will.
I have nothing to say to your first point because I need to think that over and study the relevant theology (I never considered that God made hell and now I need to ascertain whether he did before I respond or even think about responding, a question complicated by being unsure of what hell is). With regard to your second point, however, I must cordially disagree with anyone who espouses the complete inerrancy of all versions of the Bible. (I must disagree less cordially with anyone who espouses the inerrancy of only the King James Version.) I thought it was common knowledge that the King James Version suffered from poor translation and the Vulgate was corrupt. A quick glance at the disagreements even among ancient manuscripts could tell you that.
I suppose if I complain about people with illogical beliefs making Christianity look bad, you’ll think it’s a joke...
I don’t really have a dog in this race. That said, Matthew 25:41 seems to point in that direction, although “prepared” is perhaps a little weaker than “made”. It does seem to imply control and deliberate choice.
That’s the first passage that comes to mind, anyway. There’s not a whole lot on Hell in the Bible; most of the traditions associated with it are part of folk as opposed to textual Christianity, or are derived from essentially fanfictional works like Dante’s or Milton’s.
That made me laugh. Calling Dante “fanfiction” of the Bible was just so unexpected and simultaneously so accurate.
Upvoted for self-awareness.
The more general problem, of course, is that if you don’t believe in textual inerrancy (of whatever version of the Bible you happen to prefer), you still aren’t relying on God to decide which parts are correct.
As Prismattic said, if you discard inerrancy, you run into the problem of classifications. How do you know which parts of the Bible are literally true, which are metaphorical, and which have been superseded by the newer parts ?
I would also add that our material world contains many things that, while they aren’t as bad as Hell, are still pretty bad. For example, most animals eat each other alive in order to survive (some insects do so in truly terrifying ways); viruses and bacteria ravage huge swaths of the population, human, animal and plant alike; natural disasters routinely cause death and suffering on the global scale, etc. Did God create all these things, as well ?
That’s not a very good argument. “If you accept some parts are metaphorical, how do you know which are?” is, but if you only accept transcription and translation errors, you just treat it like any other historical document.
My bad; for some reason I thought that when AK said,
She meant that some parts of the Bible are not meant to be taken literally, but on second reading, it’s obvious that she is only referring to transcription and translation errors, like you said. I stand corrected.
Well, that really depends on what your translation criteria are. :) Reading KJV and, say, NIV side-by-side is like hearing Handel in one ear and Creed in the other.
When I feel the urge, I go to r/debatereligion. The standards of debate aren’t as high as they are here, of course; but I don’t have to feel guilty about lowering them.