Online dating is only a very small part of the taskification of dating. Even though a >website provides an avenue where people can contact each other, what do you do >then? And if you do end up meeting someone, what do you do?
The algorithm for what to do when you meet someone is simple. You talk about yourself and listen to them talk about themselves and ask them questions about themselves. The goal is to get to know them and help them get to know you so that you both decide whether you are interested in spending more time together. If you are compatible and open the conversation will flow naturally, and you will both have a good time. This algorithm won’t work well for you if your communications skills are poor or if you are genuinely unlikeable/unattractive. I had to work on both of those issues to become successful at dating. My communication skills are still pretty terrible, but I focused enough effort on becoming attractive that eventually it worked out.
The algorithm for what to do when you meet someone is simple.
As you admit, the simplicity of this algorithm is dependent on one’s communication skills.
You talk about yourself and listen to them talk about themselves and ask them questions about themselves.
Interestingly, a lot of conventional dating advice insists that people shouldn’t talk about themselves too much.
This is an example of advice that is trivially correct, but encourages the wrong focus. Yes, there is a danger of talking about oneself too much, but there is also a danger in talking about oneself too little.
In my experience, the best way to get someone to talk about themselves and open up is not to just start asking them questions. Instead, talk about yourself for a bit, and then ask them questions or simply shut up and they will often start talking about themselves. People tend to feel more comfortable opening up after you have shared something about yourself.
To develop enough rapport to transition to open-ended questions, I will instead make statements, or talk about myself or what I’ve been up to, or I’ll free associate on something in the environment. Or I will use close-ended questions! Close-ended questions are actually very powerful for several reasons:
You can use them to give the other person a choice to give either a short response. The type of answer I get will let me gauge how engaged the other person is in the conversation. If they aren’t engaged enough to give an extensive answer, then I just keep talking, and then try another question soon.
You can use them precisely because they will elicit a short response. A property of many questions is that people will often give a short answer and ask them right back. You can make use of this. Pick a subject you want to talk about. Ask a close-ended question that relates to it (or I might use an open-ended question that I don’t expect them to be ready to answer extensively). If they give a long answer, great, let them talk. But if they don’t, they will often ask the question right back. And then you can answer the question any way you want. And when they listen to what you are saying, it will get them thinking about the subject and engaged. Then you bring in the open-ended questions and you will actually get interesting answers.
In short, for a conversation to flow, there are certain tasks that need to be accomplished:
The other person has to be comfortable with you, to a degree that increases with the intimacy of the conversation.
To talk about certain subjects, the other person needs to get thinking about them (questions like “what is your favorite music?” or “what is your type in people you are into?” are actually cognitively hard for many people to answer on the spot)
So as you can see, I agree with your advice, but I can break it down even further into the nuts and bolts of actually how to have a conversation that flows. I think about it at a much greater level of granularity because that is what has been useful for me (other people’s mileage might vary). All the stuff I mention, many people already do without being conscious of it. For people who experience conversation as a problem, this greater granularity might be helpful. I’m interested in taking what is intuitive to socially-skilled people, and breaking it down into pieces and articulating it, making it accessible for people who don’t currently have intuitive social skills.
For instance, I asked the question, what do you do when you end up meeting someone (e.g. from an online dating website)? Your answer was that you talk about yourself and listen to them talk about themselves and ask questions. But you skipped a step or two. A date doesn’t start in the middle of conversation. It starts with saying “hi” and a few pleasantries. How do you get from there, to people talking about themselves? That’s not an incredibly hard problem, but how do you do it in a strong way with minimum awkwardness, such as a long uncomfortable pause after pleasantries? Transitions between different types of conversation is a nontrivial problem for many people.
It’s this level of granularity that is lacking from conventional dating advice. Dating advice typically covers certain scenarios and stages, but doesn’t really discuss how to glue those pieces together and transition (e.g. when you are starting a first date, how do you go from exchanging pleasantries to starting a conversation that flows, in the minimum amount of steps and the minimum amount of awkwardness?)
I would recommend auditing a counseling class. My fiancee is studying to become a professional counselor, and has had at least one class on how to talk to people who might be reluctant to talk. She can transcend smalltalk with my relatives in just a few steps and have actual conversations with them, something I’d love to be able to do.
Great skill to have. If we can find a way to teach it to LW, that would be awesome. I’ve seen more women than men who could do it, but it’s definitely not gender-exclusive and not inborn.
As you admit, the simplicity of this algorithm is dependent on one’s communication >skills.
I guess I would say that the algorithm is simple regardless of communication skills, but the effectiveness and pleasantness changes. i have a lot of social anxiety so I would find talking about myself on a first date (something I’ll hopefully never have to do again) to be very unpleasant. And yet, I know exactly how to do it in the sense that I know how to express thoughts verbally and I know what thoughts are “about myself.” I would be awkward and the woman would typically form an accurate opinion of me, and especially my lack of social skills, and conclude that she didn’t want a second date. This is the correct outcome.
It’s this level of granularity that is lacking from conventional dating advice. Dating >advice typically covers certain scenarios and stages, but doesn’t really discuss how >to glue those pieces together and transition (e.g. when you are starting a first date, >how do you go from exchanging pleasantries to starting a conversation that flows, in >the minimum amount of steps and the minimum amount of awkwardness?)
I think that you are somewhat unfairly criticizing conventional dating advice because the goal of that advice is not your goal. The goal of my advice was not to create a high percentage of first dates that are “successful” and that lead to second dates or whatever. The goal of my advice was to allow both people to effectively determine how interested they are in the other person so that they accurately know if they want to have a second date.
I tend to think that the kind of advice you are looking for would make the filtering function of dating more difficult. A person who tends to make a conversation flow very well regardless of who it is with will always seem attractive and compatible on a first date. The other party will then have to spend more time and effort determining actual compatibility than they otherwise would. I am much more worried about a “false positive” on a date that leads to subsequent time and energy wasting dates than I am about “false negatives” in which compatible people can’t get past their communication shortcomings to see that they are actually made for each other. I just think that there are too many good options for most people (especially since the advent of online dating) to worry too much about false negatives. Everyone can find someone as long as they put some effort into searching and are honest about their status and who would be interested in them.
I am much more worried about a “false positive” [...] than I am about “false negatives” in which compatible people can’t get past their communication shortcomings to see that they are actually made for each other. I just think that there are too many good options for most people.
Funny, I think there are very few options and thus I’m willing to tolerate a lot of initial bumpiness in communications to see whether we’re ultimately compatible. To each his own. (I had a lot of communication problems early in life, and still do to a lesser extent, and that may be part of it too.)
Everyone can find someone as long as they put some effort into searching and are honest about their status and who would be interested in them.
If I take this as a statement meant to be strictly true, it rings false. It seems very unlikely that people would happen to occur in the proper proportions so that everyone would find someone. At least it seems there would be something like a 50% chance of there being an ‘odd man out’ even if everything else worked out perfectly.
The algorithm for what to do when you meet someone is simple. You talk about yourself and listen to them talk about themselves and ask them questions about themselves. The goal is to get to know them and help them get to know you so that you both decide whether you are interested in spending more time together. If you are compatible and open the conversation will flow naturally, and you will both have a good time. This algorithm won’t work well for you if your communications skills are poor or if you are genuinely unlikeable/unattractive. I had to work on both of those issues to become successful at dating. My communication skills are still pretty terrible, but I focused enough effort on becoming attractive that eventually it worked out.
As you admit, the simplicity of this algorithm is dependent on one’s communication skills.
Interestingly, a lot of conventional dating advice insists that people shouldn’t talk about themselves too much.
This is an example of advice that is trivially correct, but encourages the wrong focus. Yes, there is a danger of talking about oneself too much, but there is also a danger in talking about oneself too little.
In my experience, the best way to get someone to talk about themselves and open up is not to just start asking them questions. Instead, talk about yourself for a bit, and then ask them questions or simply shut up and they will often start talking about themselves. People tend to feel more comfortable opening up after you have shared something about yourself.
Another very common piece of dating advice is “ask open-ended question rather than close-ended or yes/no questions. Open-ended questions are great, but you can’t just jump into them with someone you don’t know very well, or when the conversation isn’t lubricated yet.
To develop enough rapport to transition to open-ended questions, I will instead make statements, or talk about myself or what I’ve been up to, or I’ll free associate on something in the environment. Or I will use close-ended questions! Close-ended questions are actually very powerful for several reasons:
You can use them to give the other person a choice to give either a short response. The type of answer I get will let me gauge how engaged the other person is in the conversation. If they aren’t engaged enough to give an extensive answer, then I just keep talking, and then try another question soon.
You can use them precisely because they will elicit a short response. A property of many questions is that people will often give a short answer and ask them right back. You can make use of this. Pick a subject you want to talk about. Ask a close-ended question that relates to it (or I might use an open-ended question that I don’t expect them to be ready to answer extensively). If they give a long answer, great, let them talk. But if they don’t, they will often ask the question right back. And then you can answer the question any way you want. And when they listen to what you are saying, it will get them thinking about the subject and engaged. Then you bring in the open-ended questions and you will actually get interesting answers.
In short, for a conversation to flow, there are certain tasks that need to be accomplished:
The other person has to be comfortable with you, to a degree that increases with the intimacy of the conversation.
To talk about certain subjects, the other person needs to get thinking about them (questions like “what is your favorite music?” or “what is your type in people you are into?” are actually cognitively hard for many people to answer on the spot)
So as you can see, I agree with your advice, but I can break it down even further into the nuts and bolts of actually how to have a conversation that flows. I think about it at a much greater level of granularity because that is what has been useful for me (other people’s mileage might vary). All the stuff I mention, many people already do without being conscious of it. For people who experience conversation as a problem, this greater granularity might be helpful. I’m interested in taking what is intuitive to socially-skilled people, and breaking it down into pieces and articulating it, making it accessible for people who don’t currently have intuitive social skills.
For instance, I asked the question, what do you do when you end up meeting someone (e.g. from an online dating website)? Your answer was that you talk about yourself and listen to them talk about themselves and ask questions. But you skipped a step or two. A date doesn’t start in the middle of conversation. It starts with saying “hi” and a few pleasantries. How do you get from there, to people talking about themselves? That’s not an incredibly hard problem, but how do you do it in a strong way with minimum awkwardness, such as a long uncomfortable pause after pleasantries? Transitions between different types of conversation is a nontrivial problem for many people.
It’s this level of granularity that is lacking from conventional dating advice. Dating advice typically covers certain scenarios and stages, but doesn’t really discuss how to glue those pieces together and transition (e.g. when you are starting a first date, how do you go from exchanging pleasantries to starting a conversation that flows, in the minimum amount of steps and the minimum amount of awkwardness?)
I would recommend auditing a counseling class. My fiancee is studying to become a professional counselor, and has had at least one class on how to talk to people who might be reluctant to talk. She can transcend smalltalk with my relatives in just a few steps and have actual conversations with them, something I’d love to be able to do.
Great skill to have. If we can find a way to teach it to LW, that would be awesome. I’ve seen more women than men who could do it, but it’s definitely not gender-exclusive and not inborn.
I guess I would say that the algorithm is simple regardless of communication skills, but the effectiveness and pleasantness changes. i have a lot of social anxiety so I would find talking about myself on a first date (something I’ll hopefully never have to do again) to be very unpleasant. And yet, I know exactly how to do it in the sense that I know how to express thoughts verbally and I know what thoughts are “about myself.” I would be awkward and the woman would typically form an accurate opinion of me, and especially my lack of social skills, and conclude that she didn’t want a second date. This is the correct outcome.
I think that you are somewhat unfairly criticizing conventional dating advice because the goal of that advice is not your goal. The goal of my advice was not to create a high percentage of first dates that are “successful” and that lead to second dates or whatever. The goal of my advice was to allow both people to effectively determine how interested they are in the other person so that they accurately know if they want to have a second date.
I tend to think that the kind of advice you are looking for would make the filtering function of dating more difficult. A person who tends to make a conversation flow very well regardless of who it is with will always seem attractive and compatible on a first date. The other party will then have to spend more time and effort determining actual compatibility than they otherwise would. I am much more worried about a “false positive” on a date that leads to subsequent time and energy wasting dates than I am about “false negatives” in which compatible people can’t get past their communication shortcomings to see that they are actually made for each other. I just think that there are too many good options for most people (especially since the advent of online dating) to worry too much about false negatives. Everyone can find someone as long as they put some effort into searching and are honest about their status and who would be interested in them.
Funny, I think there are very few options and thus I’m willing to tolerate a lot of initial bumpiness in communications to see whether we’re ultimately compatible. To each his own. (I had a lot of communication problems early in life, and still do to a lesser extent, and that may be part of it too.)
If I take this as a statement meant to be strictly true, it rings false. It seems very unlikely that people would happen to occur in the proper proportions so that everyone would find someone. At least it seems there would be something like a 50% chance of there being an ‘odd man out’ even if everything else worked out perfectly.