If someone goes around desecrating Torahs, you would be completely rational to conclude that he probably has an issue with Jews in general and feel threatened.
Here’s a possible litmus test: how would you feel about another former Orthodox Jew desecrating a Torah scroll as a symbol of eir change in belief.
Interesting. I seem to have the same flinch effect JoshuaZ described, despite believing that religion in general and Judaism in particular are great evils of the world which separated my family from me.
Can you tell how much of that flinch is because it’s the Torah specifically, and how much is just because it’s a book period?
“Okay, so there’s a run-away train bearing down on a copy of ‘Godel, Escher, Bach’, and a really fat copy of the Torah standing at the edge of a cliff above the track. You are standing behind the Torah, and it’s immediately clear to you that if you push it, it will fall on the tracks, stopping the train and saving the copy of GEB...”
Personally, I once found the B volume of some encyclopedia on top of a mountain while hiking, and carried it home through a thunder storm, even though I certainly wasn’t expecting me or anybody else to ever actually read it.
A Torah scroll isn’t the same thing as a book. It’s hand-written on parchment, and it’s a long rectangle (rather than on pages) wrapped around rollers. It will probably have an ornamented cover, and more ornaments on the ends of the rollers.
Simchat Torah is an annual holiday at the end of the cycle of reading it in which the scrolls are paraded around the synagogue. “On each occasion, when the ark is opened, all the worshippers leave their seats to dance and sing with all the Torah scrolls in a joyous celebration that often lasts for several hours and more.” I have to admit things weren’t that exuberant at the synagogue my family went to.
If a Torah is too worn out to be used, it is buried in a Jewish cemetery.
So we aren’t just talking about reactions to a book being damaged. though they may certainly be part of what’s going on.
One thing that’s occurring to me is that you really can’t make reliable guesses about the details of religions you aren’t familiar with.
Oh right, I actually remember that thing about the ‘book funeral’ and all. They do the same thing in Sikhism with their own super special book, the… whichamacallit… ah yes, the “Sri Guru Granth Sahib”.
In fact, it’s so similar that it leads me to suspect that there are some details about unfamiliar religions that you should be able to make reliable guesses about :P
Anyway, the ‘flinch’ could still be produced for secular reasons. Not only is the ‘preserve books’ thing in force, but also the ‘preserve works of art’ thing.
I mean, I definitely flinch at the thought of someone desecrating a Torah or an Adi Granth (different, shorter name), and that’s certainly not due to a religious upbringing or any ingrained respect for it. I mean, I’d even forgotten about the ‘book funeral’ stuff with the Torah, and had to google to double check the spelling of the Adi Granth.
And it’s not even that I’m worried about offending adherents. I’d feel the same way if all religions were extinct and the books just museum material (what a wonderful world!).
I guess it’s just a flinch towards violently/hatefully wrecking things in general. So the idea of some deconvert burning one copy of a mass market paperback of their former holy book in some sort of secular ceremony, peacefully symbolizing that they’re personally moving on, not intending to uselessly provoke anyone… that shouldn’t bother me. And I don’t think it does.
I think i have some further interesting datapoints to add here: I feel I’d flinch away from unbending a papperclip or disturbing a prime numbered heap of pebbles, much more strongly than before reading the LW material where those were used as examples.
I think i have some further interesting datapoints to add here: I feel I’d flinch away from unbending a papperclip or disturbing a prime numbered heap of pebbles, much more strongly than before reading the LW material where those were used as examples.
I’m so glad I’m not the only one.
Edit: Although now that I think about this, I feel this much more strongly about paperclips than heaps of pebbles. This is probably because of the more long-term influence of interacting with User:Clippy.
I used to unbend them all the time when I was a little kid, and use rubber bands to make em into little bows for shooting pencils. “Ka-twangers” I called em.
So when the revolution comes and you guys are going, “Well I for one welcome our new paper-clip maximizing overlords!” I guess I’ll be the first against the wall.
Hm. I think it’s fair to say that I would probably be about equally reluctant to wreck any other artwork containing an equal amount of painstaking effort.
I see it more in terms of economic value. A Torah is worth about as much as as a new Honda Civic at the low end and a luxury car at the high end. I would be reluctant to wreck anything worth $20,000 - $60,000… presumably the owner of said material object is going to be upset. And if you are the owner, why are you blowing up your own car? You’d almost always make a better statement by selling your Torah/car and giving the money to charity.
And if you are the owner, why are you blowing up your own car? You’d almost always make a better statement by selling your Torah/car and giving the money to charity.
Do you think that would have the same degree of emotional satisfaction as a symbol of their break with the religion?
Personally, I don’t get that flinch thinking about a person desecrating their own Torah, but I’d caution anyone planning to do so to make sure that the symbolic action is actually worth tens of thousands of dollars to them, because it’s a very expensive way to purchase fuzzies.
“Refurbished Torah?” That is hilarious. But when you say, “I see it more in terms of economic value”, you mean, “economic value is another secular factor”? I mean that you also get the general “avoid wrecking painstakingly produced artwork” feeling regardless of its resale value :P
Here’s a possible litmus test: how would you feel about another former Orthodox Jew desecrating a Torah scroll as a symbol of eir change in belief.
That’s an interesting test. My background (never belief, exactly) is Conservative (that is, intermediate between Orthodox and Reform), and that scenario makes me queasy. My first thought was that it represents a level of rage which I’m not comfortable with (and this isn’t totally nonsense), but I do find it more distressing than imagining an ex-Christian doing the same to a Christian bible, even a hand-lettered bible.
Wow, really? From an atheist background, to me I’m much more horrified by the thought of any unique hand-created book being burned than any printed thing for which there are endless copies.
Wow, really? From an atheist background, to me I’m much more horrified by the thought of any unique hand-created book being burned than any printed thing for which there are endless copies.
Er, Torah scrolls are hand-written. The scroll form is always made by a scribe, not printed.
I think you missed what ciphergoth was reacting to—I said that I’d be more upset at a Torah scroll being destroyed than a hand-written Christian bible. This doesn’t mean that I’d have no reaction to the Christian destroying a hand-written Christian bible.
What I was imagining for the hand-written bible was one without illustrations, but that probably wouldn’t make any emotional difference for ciphergoth.
If it’s detailed enough that sufficiently advanced technology could rebuild it indistinguishably, I’m happy. I’m curious how other people feel about this!
It’s interesting that you find a hypothetical Torah scroll desecration to be indicative of rage. Before I lost my Jewish faith I, too, would have associated Torah-desecration with villainy and hate — partially because there were stories and legends about villainous Torah-desecrators, and partially because the Torah evoked such feelings of sanctity and purity that the idea of desecrating a Torah only made sense if there was rage or depravity involved. But of course, I can now easily imagine other emotions that would motivate hypothetical Torah desecrators, like trollishness.
I think it’s more that I’m generally apt to underestimate the impulse to trollishness, though I do think it overlaps hate. Pissing people off for the lulz has something to do with malice towards those people, though I grant that rage has a lot of emotional intensity while trolling has some distance.
Here’s a possible litmus test: how would you feel about another former Orthodox Jew desecrating a Torah scroll as a symbol of eir change in belief.
“Another”? I assume this question is directed at Joshua Z. I am not a former Orthodox Jew, nor any other kind of Jew for that matter. I’m Catholic.
That said, as I wrote in my above comment, clearly the context of an offensive/blasphemous act or utterance matters a lot. As for the concrete scenario you list, I find it hard to imagine that a Jew who has left the religion would symbolically desecrate Torah—the act has such a strong connotation of anti-Jewish pogroms that I’d imagine even a non-religious Jew would find it scary, almost like brandishing swastikas. That’s my outsider’s impression at least; I’d be curious to hear the opinion of someone more knowledgeable.
Just out of curiosity, in what sense are you Catholic (heritage, culture, belief)?
Well, legally, I am a Catholic in good standing (I’m baptized, and I’ve never renounced it nor been excommunicated). In my practices, I am largely lapsed, though I value the heritage, the art, the community, and the folkways a lot. As for beliefs, obviously there is a lot that doesn’t stand up to rational scrutiny, though like in any long-standing tradition, many things that may seem irrational or backward are in fact closer to reality than various modern fashionable beliefs. (Clearly, a simple blog comment can’t do justice to this topic.)
What I would point out however is that I often find the North American (presumably Protestant) attitudes in this regard quite alien and strange. What I mean is the tendency to see one’s belonging to a church as an either-or matter, and breaking with it as a grand and dramatic event. Among Catholics, the normal thing to do is simply to adjust the level of your practices and your closeness to the community to whatever you find to your liking. (ETA: Though conversion to a different religion, as opposed to merely neglecting one’s own, would be a big deal.)
As for beliefs, obviously there is a lot that doesn’t stand up to rational scrutiny, though like in any long-standing tradition, many things that may seem irrational or backward are in fact closer to reality than various modern fashionable beliefs. (Clearly, a simple blog comment can’t do justice to this topic.)
I assume you’ve read his blog as well. In that case there are several things I’d recommend. If you haven’t read all of Paul Graham’s essays, you should. There’s also Walter Mead’s essay of what he, rather anachronistically, calls the “Blue Social Model”. He also talks about these ideas in more depth on his blog (along with all kinds of other stuff ETA: mostly on current events).
Also possibly John C Wright’s blog if you’re more interested in religious stuff.
Just to bring in the real world, I’ve never heard of an ex-Orthodox Jew desecrating a Torah to symbolize their break with the religion. I have heard of them eating emphatically non-kosher food.
If someone goes around desecrating Torahs, you would be completely rational to conclude that he probably has an issue with Jews in general and feel threatened.
Here’s a possible litmus test: how would you feel about another former Orthodox Jew desecrating a Torah scroll as a symbol of eir change in belief.
I think I’d still feel emotional unpleasantness although probably not as much as in the generic case. This suggests that Vladimir’s concern is partially correct but that that’s not the whole thing and some really is just residual emotional feelings. There’s another side issue that may also be involved, in that the burning of books of any form or similar objects (such as scrolls) makes me deeply pained regardless. But that connects to what Vladimir M was talking about in that part of that deep pain is the historical connection between book burning and censorship.
Here’s a possible litmus test: how would you feel about another former Orthodox Jew desecrating a Torah scroll as a symbol of eir change in belief.
Interesting. I seem to have the same flinch effect JoshuaZ described, despite believing that religion in general and Judaism in particular are great evils of the world which separated my family from me.
Can you tell how much of that flinch is because it’s the Torah specifically, and how much is just because it’s a book period?
“Okay, so there’s a run-away train bearing down on a copy of ‘Godel, Escher, Bach’, and a really fat copy of the Torah standing at the edge of a cliff above the track. You are standing behind the Torah, and it’s immediately clear to you that if you push it, it will fall on the tracks, stopping the train and saving the copy of GEB...”
Personally, I once found the B volume of some encyclopedia on top of a mountain while hiking, and carried it home through a thunder storm, even though I certainly wasn’t expecting me or anybody else to ever actually read it.
A Torah scroll isn’t the same thing as a book. It’s hand-written on parchment, and it’s a long rectangle (rather than on pages) wrapped around rollers. It will probably have an ornamented cover, and more ornaments on the ends of the rollers.
Simchat Torah is an annual holiday at the end of the cycle of reading it in which the scrolls are paraded around the synagogue. “On each occasion, when the ark is opened, all the worshippers leave their seats to dance and sing with all the Torah scrolls in a joyous celebration that often lasts for several hours and more.” I have to admit things weren’t that exuberant at the synagogue my family went to.
If a Torah is too worn out to be used, it is buried in a Jewish cemetery.
So we aren’t just talking about reactions to a book being damaged. though they may certainly be part of what’s going on.
One thing that’s occurring to me is that you really can’t make reliable guesses about the details of religions you aren’t familiar with.
Oh right, I actually remember that thing about the ‘book funeral’ and all. They do the same thing in Sikhism with their own super special book, the… whichamacallit… ah yes, the “Sri Guru Granth Sahib”.
In fact, it’s so similar that it leads me to suspect that there are some details about unfamiliar religions that you should be able to make reliable guesses about :P
Anyway, the ‘flinch’ could still be produced for secular reasons. Not only is the ‘preserve books’ thing in force, but also the ‘preserve works of art’ thing.
I mean, I definitely flinch at the thought of someone desecrating a Torah or an Adi Granth (different, shorter name), and that’s certainly not due to a religious upbringing or any ingrained respect for it. I mean, I’d even forgotten about the ‘book funeral’ stuff with the Torah, and had to google to double check the spelling of the Adi Granth.
And it’s not even that I’m worried about offending adherents. I’d feel the same way if all religions were extinct and the books just museum material (what a wonderful world!).
I guess it’s just a flinch towards violently/hatefully wrecking things in general. So the idea of some deconvert burning one copy of a mass market paperback of their former holy book in some sort of secular ceremony, peacefully symbolizing that they’re personally moving on, not intending to uselessly provoke anyone… that shouldn’t bother me. And I don’t think it does.
I think i have some further interesting datapoints to add here: I feel I’d flinch away from unbending a papperclip or disturbing a prime numbered heap of pebbles, much more strongly than before reading the LW material where those were used as examples.
I’m so glad I’m not the only one.
Edit: Although now that I think about this, I feel this much more strongly about paperclips than heaps of pebbles. This is probably because of the more long-term influence of interacting with User:Clippy.
I used to unbend them all the time when I was a little kid, and use rubber bands to make em into little bows for shooting pencils. “Ka-twangers” I called em.
So when the revolution comes and you guys are going, “Well I for one welcome our new paper-clip maximizing overlords!” I guess I’ll be the first against the wall.
Drat.
Yea, that seems likely. I do not but I have not had that much interaction with him.
Hm. I think it’s fair to say that I would probably be about equally reluctant to wreck any other artwork containing an equal amount of painstaking effort.
(Whew!)
I see it more in terms of economic value. A Torah is worth about as much as as a new Honda Civic at the low end and a luxury car at the high end. I would be reluctant to wreck anything worth $20,000 - $60,000… presumably the owner of said material object is going to be upset. And if you are the owner, why are you blowing up your own car? You’d almost always make a better statement by selling your Torah/car and giving the money to charity.
Edit: You can get a refurb Torah for only $9,500! o.0 http://www.ahuva.com/prod-Sefer_Torah_Scroll-1279.aspx
Do you think that would have the same degree of emotional satisfaction as a symbol of their break with the religion?
Personally, I don’t get that flinch thinking about a person desecrating their own Torah, but I’d caution anyone planning to do so to make sure that the symbolic action is actually worth tens of thousands of dollars to them, because it’s a very expensive way to purchase fuzzies.
“Refurbished Torah?” That is hilarious. But when you say, “I see it more in terms of economic value”, you mean, “economic value is another secular factor”? I mean that you also get the general “avoid wrecking painstakingly produced artwork” feeling regardless of its resale value :P
Yeah, I second that “whew!” I was afraid for a second there that I might be a secret jewish sikh, and I have a feeling that would be complicated.
That’s an interesting test. My background (never belief, exactly) is Conservative (that is, intermediate between Orthodox and Reform), and that scenario makes me queasy. My first thought was that it represents a level of rage which I’m not comfortable with (and this isn’t totally nonsense), but I do find it more distressing than imagining an ex-Christian doing the same to a Christian bible, even a hand-lettered bible.
Wow, really? From an atheist background, to me I’m much more horrified by the thought of any unique hand-created book being burned than any printed thing for which there are endless copies.
Er, Torah scrolls are hand-written. The scroll form is always made by a scribe, not printed.
is enlightened thanks!
I think you missed what ciphergoth was reacting to—I said that I’d be more upset at a Torah scroll being destroyed than a hand-written Christian bible. This doesn’t mean that I’d have no reaction to the Christian destroying a hand-written Christian bible.
What I was imagining for the hand-written bible was one without illustrations, but that probably wouldn’t make any emotional difference for ciphergoth.
Is the emotion the same if someone made a sufficiently detailed scan of it before they burnt it?
If it’s detailed enough that sufficiently advanced technology could rebuild it indistinguishably, I’m happy. I’m curious how other people feel about this!
It’s interesting that you find a hypothetical Torah scroll desecration to be indicative of rage. Before I lost my Jewish faith I, too, would have associated Torah-desecration with villainy and hate — partially because there were stories and legends about villainous Torah-desecrators, and partially because the Torah evoked such feelings of sanctity and purity that the idea of desecrating a Torah only made sense if there was rage or depravity involved. But of course, I can now easily imagine other emotions that would motivate hypothetical Torah desecrators, like trollishness.
I think it’s more that I’m generally apt to underestimate the impulse to trollishness, though I do think it overlaps hate. Pissing people off for the lulz has something to do with malice towards those people, though I grant that rage has a lot of emotional intensity while trolling has some distance.
“Another”? I assume this question is directed at Joshua Z. I am not a former Orthodox Jew, nor any other kind of Jew for that matter. I’m Catholic.
That said, as I wrote in my above comment, clearly the context of an offensive/blasphemous act or utterance matters a lot. As for the concrete scenario you list, I find it hard to imagine that a Jew who has left the religion would symbolically desecrate Torah—the act has such a strong connotation of anti-Jewish pogroms that I’d imagine even a non-religious Jew would find it scary, almost like brandishing swastikas. That’s my outsider’s impression at least; I’d be curious to hear the opinion of someone more knowledgeable.
Just out of curiosity, in what sense are you Catholic (heritage, culture, belief)? (No need to answer if you prefer not to.)
Well, legally, I am a Catholic in good standing (I’m baptized, and I’ve never renounced it nor been excommunicated). In my practices, I am largely lapsed, though I value the heritage, the art, the community, and the folkways a lot. As for beliefs, obviously there is a lot that doesn’t stand up to rational scrutiny, though like in any long-standing tradition, many things that may seem irrational or backward are in fact closer to reality than various modern fashionable beliefs. (Clearly, a simple blog comment can’t do justice to this topic.)
What I would point out however is that I often find the North American (presumably Protestant) attitudes in this regard quite alien and strange. What I mean is the tendency to see one’s belonging to a church as an either-or matter, and breaking with it as a grand and dramatic event. Among Catholics, the normal thing to do is simply to adjust the level of your practices and your closeness to the community to whatever you find to your liking. (ETA: Though conversion to a different religion, as opposed to merely neglecting one’s own, would be a big deal.)
I’d recommend Nick Szabo’s essay Objective Versus Intersubjective Truth as a good first explanation of the topic.
Note: The website appears to be down at the moment, Google cache available here.
Yes, I second that recommendation. It’s a magnificently good essay.
Any other recommendations in a vaguely similar vein? (I’ve already read Szabo’s other stuff.)
I can’t think of anything of similar quality right now.
Any other recommendations in a vaguely similar vein? (I’ve already read Szabo’s other stuff.)
Szabo’s website is up as of May 4, 2012.
I assume you’ve read his blog as well. In that case there are several things I’d recommend. If you haven’t read all of Paul Graham’s essays, you should. There’s also Walter Mead’s essay of what he, rather anachronistically, calls the “Blue Social Model”. He also talks about these ideas in more depth on his blog (along with all kinds of other stuff ETA: mostly on current events).
Also possibly John C Wright’s blog if you’re more interested in religious stuff.
Yes, the question was for Joshua Z; I should have made that more clear.
Just to bring in the real world, I’ve never heard of an ex-Orthodox Jew desecrating a Torah to symbolize their break with the religion. I have heard of them eating emphatically non-kosher food.
I think I’d still feel emotional unpleasantness although probably not as much as in the generic case. This suggests that Vladimir’s concern is partially correct but that that’s not the whole thing and some really is just residual emotional feelings. There’s another side issue that may also be involved, in that the burning of books of any form or similar objects (such as scrolls) makes me deeply pained regardless. But that connects to what Vladimir M was talking about in that part of that deep pain is the historical connection between book burning and censorship.