Interesting. I seem to have the same flinch effect JoshuaZ described, despite believing that religion in general and Judaism in particular are great evils of the world which separated my family from me.
Can you tell how much of that flinch is because it’s the Torah specifically, and how much is just because it’s a book period?
“Okay, so there’s a run-away train bearing down on a copy of ‘Godel, Escher, Bach’, and a really fat copy of the Torah standing at the edge of a cliff above the track. You are standing behind the Torah, and it’s immediately clear to you that if you push it, it will fall on the tracks, stopping the train and saving the copy of GEB...”
Personally, I once found the B volume of some encyclopedia on top of a mountain while hiking, and carried it home through a thunder storm, even though I certainly wasn’t expecting me or anybody else to ever actually read it.
A Torah scroll isn’t the same thing as a book. It’s hand-written on parchment, and it’s a long rectangle (rather than on pages) wrapped around rollers. It will probably have an ornamented cover, and more ornaments on the ends of the rollers.
Simchat Torah is an annual holiday at the end of the cycle of reading it in which the scrolls are paraded around the synagogue. “On each occasion, when the ark is opened, all the worshippers leave their seats to dance and sing with all the Torah scrolls in a joyous celebration that often lasts for several hours and more.” I have to admit things weren’t that exuberant at the synagogue my family went to.
If a Torah is too worn out to be used, it is buried in a Jewish cemetery.
So we aren’t just talking about reactions to a book being damaged. though they may certainly be part of what’s going on.
One thing that’s occurring to me is that you really can’t make reliable guesses about the details of religions you aren’t familiar with.
Oh right, I actually remember that thing about the ‘book funeral’ and all. They do the same thing in Sikhism with their own super special book, the… whichamacallit… ah yes, the “Sri Guru Granth Sahib”.
In fact, it’s so similar that it leads me to suspect that there are some details about unfamiliar religions that you should be able to make reliable guesses about :P
Anyway, the ‘flinch’ could still be produced for secular reasons. Not only is the ‘preserve books’ thing in force, but also the ‘preserve works of art’ thing.
I mean, I definitely flinch at the thought of someone desecrating a Torah or an Adi Granth (different, shorter name), and that’s certainly not due to a religious upbringing or any ingrained respect for it. I mean, I’d even forgotten about the ‘book funeral’ stuff with the Torah, and had to google to double check the spelling of the Adi Granth.
And it’s not even that I’m worried about offending adherents. I’d feel the same way if all religions were extinct and the books just museum material (what a wonderful world!).
I guess it’s just a flinch towards violently/hatefully wrecking things in general. So the idea of some deconvert burning one copy of a mass market paperback of their former holy book in some sort of secular ceremony, peacefully symbolizing that they’re personally moving on, not intending to uselessly provoke anyone… that shouldn’t bother me. And I don’t think it does.
I think i have some further interesting datapoints to add here: I feel I’d flinch away from unbending a papperclip or disturbing a prime numbered heap of pebbles, much more strongly than before reading the LW material where those were used as examples.
I think i have some further interesting datapoints to add here: I feel I’d flinch away from unbending a papperclip or disturbing a prime numbered heap of pebbles, much more strongly than before reading the LW material where those were used as examples.
I’m so glad I’m not the only one.
Edit: Although now that I think about this, I feel this much more strongly about paperclips than heaps of pebbles. This is probably because of the more long-term influence of interacting with User:Clippy.
I used to unbend them all the time when I was a little kid, and use rubber bands to make em into little bows for shooting pencils. “Ka-twangers” I called em.
So when the revolution comes and you guys are going, “Well I for one welcome our new paper-clip maximizing overlords!” I guess I’ll be the first against the wall.
Hm. I think it’s fair to say that I would probably be about equally reluctant to wreck any other artwork containing an equal amount of painstaking effort.
I see it more in terms of economic value. A Torah is worth about as much as as a new Honda Civic at the low end and a luxury car at the high end. I would be reluctant to wreck anything worth $20,000 - $60,000… presumably the owner of said material object is going to be upset. And if you are the owner, why are you blowing up your own car? You’d almost always make a better statement by selling your Torah/car and giving the money to charity.
And if you are the owner, why are you blowing up your own car? You’d almost always make a better statement by selling your Torah/car and giving the money to charity.
Do you think that would have the same degree of emotional satisfaction as a symbol of their break with the religion?
Personally, I don’t get that flinch thinking about a person desecrating their own Torah, but I’d caution anyone planning to do so to make sure that the symbolic action is actually worth tens of thousands of dollars to them, because it’s a very expensive way to purchase fuzzies.
“Refurbished Torah?” That is hilarious. But when you say, “I see it more in terms of economic value”, you mean, “economic value is another secular factor”? I mean that you also get the general “avoid wrecking painstakingly produced artwork” feeling regardless of its resale value :P
Interesting. I seem to have the same flinch effect JoshuaZ described, despite believing that religion in general and Judaism in particular are great evils of the world which separated my family from me.
Can you tell how much of that flinch is because it’s the Torah specifically, and how much is just because it’s a book period?
“Okay, so there’s a run-away train bearing down on a copy of ‘Godel, Escher, Bach’, and a really fat copy of the Torah standing at the edge of a cliff above the track. You are standing behind the Torah, and it’s immediately clear to you that if you push it, it will fall on the tracks, stopping the train and saving the copy of GEB...”
Personally, I once found the B volume of some encyclopedia on top of a mountain while hiking, and carried it home through a thunder storm, even though I certainly wasn’t expecting me or anybody else to ever actually read it.
A Torah scroll isn’t the same thing as a book. It’s hand-written on parchment, and it’s a long rectangle (rather than on pages) wrapped around rollers. It will probably have an ornamented cover, and more ornaments on the ends of the rollers.
Simchat Torah is an annual holiday at the end of the cycle of reading it in which the scrolls are paraded around the synagogue. “On each occasion, when the ark is opened, all the worshippers leave their seats to dance and sing with all the Torah scrolls in a joyous celebration that often lasts for several hours and more.” I have to admit things weren’t that exuberant at the synagogue my family went to.
If a Torah is too worn out to be used, it is buried in a Jewish cemetery.
So we aren’t just talking about reactions to a book being damaged. though they may certainly be part of what’s going on.
One thing that’s occurring to me is that you really can’t make reliable guesses about the details of religions you aren’t familiar with.
Oh right, I actually remember that thing about the ‘book funeral’ and all. They do the same thing in Sikhism with their own super special book, the… whichamacallit… ah yes, the “Sri Guru Granth Sahib”.
In fact, it’s so similar that it leads me to suspect that there are some details about unfamiliar religions that you should be able to make reliable guesses about :P
Anyway, the ‘flinch’ could still be produced for secular reasons. Not only is the ‘preserve books’ thing in force, but also the ‘preserve works of art’ thing.
I mean, I definitely flinch at the thought of someone desecrating a Torah or an Adi Granth (different, shorter name), and that’s certainly not due to a religious upbringing or any ingrained respect for it. I mean, I’d even forgotten about the ‘book funeral’ stuff with the Torah, and had to google to double check the spelling of the Adi Granth.
And it’s not even that I’m worried about offending adherents. I’d feel the same way if all religions were extinct and the books just museum material (what a wonderful world!).
I guess it’s just a flinch towards violently/hatefully wrecking things in general. So the idea of some deconvert burning one copy of a mass market paperback of their former holy book in some sort of secular ceremony, peacefully symbolizing that they’re personally moving on, not intending to uselessly provoke anyone… that shouldn’t bother me. And I don’t think it does.
I think i have some further interesting datapoints to add here: I feel I’d flinch away from unbending a papperclip or disturbing a prime numbered heap of pebbles, much more strongly than before reading the LW material where those were used as examples.
I’m so glad I’m not the only one.
Edit: Although now that I think about this, I feel this much more strongly about paperclips than heaps of pebbles. This is probably because of the more long-term influence of interacting with User:Clippy.
I used to unbend them all the time when I was a little kid, and use rubber bands to make em into little bows for shooting pencils. “Ka-twangers” I called em.
So when the revolution comes and you guys are going, “Well I for one welcome our new paper-clip maximizing overlords!” I guess I’ll be the first against the wall.
Drat.
Yea, that seems likely. I do not but I have not had that much interaction with him.
Hm. I think it’s fair to say that I would probably be about equally reluctant to wreck any other artwork containing an equal amount of painstaking effort.
(Whew!)
I see it more in terms of economic value. A Torah is worth about as much as as a new Honda Civic at the low end and a luxury car at the high end. I would be reluctant to wreck anything worth $20,000 - $60,000… presumably the owner of said material object is going to be upset. And if you are the owner, why are you blowing up your own car? You’d almost always make a better statement by selling your Torah/car and giving the money to charity.
Edit: You can get a refurb Torah for only $9,500! o.0 http://www.ahuva.com/prod-Sefer_Torah_Scroll-1279.aspx
Do you think that would have the same degree of emotional satisfaction as a symbol of their break with the religion?
Personally, I don’t get that flinch thinking about a person desecrating their own Torah, but I’d caution anyone planning to do so to make sure that the symbolic action is actually worth tens of thousands of dollars to them, because it’s a very expensive way to purchase fuzzies.
“Refurbished Torah?” That is hilarious. But when you say, “I see it more in terms of economic value”, you mean, “economic value is another secular factor”? I mean that you also get the general “avoid wrecking painstakingly produced artwork” feeling regardless of its resale value :P
Yeah, I second that “whew!” I was afraid for a second there that I might be a secret jewish sikh, and I have a feeling that would be complicated.