After the norm discussion speech should be norm compliant and I think change from non-compliant to compliant means supressing the “offending” parts. If no supression happens the harmful elements are left alive to do their damage.
Yes I think this is true and thought it was obvious. Just like any other community or organization, people who aren’t following the norms repeatedly should be kicked out.
But the important part that seperates good organizations from bad is the procedures to teach and find consensus on norms.
I guess there aer two distinct points. If you allow changes based on how your organization serves the general lifes of it’s participants this will drift the communitys purpose away from being highly specialised in one task.
One of the central underlying points here is that if you ignore the participants lives or make them taboo, they’ll make everything about that ANYWAY, while pretending to be about the norms of the organization. See moral mazes, see corporate america.
In a private organization, the solution to that is to point out every time it happens, go meta, and create norms that consistently call people out on their private shit getting in the way of the community/organization, while supporting them in in working through that private shit.
In a more public space like described here, you haven’t done the vetting to make that model work, so you simply have to acknowledge that it exists, but not let people put those needs above other people’s needs, or the values of the organization.
So in the general itervention ought to happen.But I still find it contradctory that “nobody intervenes” in this case. I think the intervention needs to happen in some form or its a case of passive “let the problem fester” type of situation. It is expressed in passive voice when actual situations happen when particular humans do stuff. I think in my mind there are two models with different primary moving actors which it is not clear which one is to be followed or if either is implied by the principle.
When a lot of responcibility is placed on the speaker to moderate themselfs those decisons are less accessible to the public discussion. There is a conflict. One one hand you need to express what your needs are so that others know to balance their needs against yours. But on the other hand if you appear as “needy” you will be percieved as a problem element. If people statistically signicifantly can’t say what their needs are the Maturity principle becomes relativily empty as the needs of others are not known. It’s a relevant case where the “needs of the many people in the community” are known to be inaccurate or outright fictious (and to get to there there would need to be intervening stages where they are suspected to be so etc).With fixed goals everybody will try to disguise their objective as the accepted objective but with flexible objectives there is a new kind of strife about whos private objectives are among the flex goals. And the tension between people whos objectives are just-in and just-out can get pretty intense.
Yes I think this is true and thought it was obvious. Just like any other community or organization, people who aren’t following the norms repeatedly should be kicked out.
But the important part that seperates good organizations from bad is the procedures to teach and find consensus on norms.
One of the central underlying points here is that if you ignore the participants lives or make them taboo, they’ll make everything about that ANYWAY, while pretending to be about the norms of the organization. See moral mazes, see corporate america.
In a private organization, the solution to that is to point out every time it happens, go meta, and create norms that consistently call people out on their private shit getting in the way of the community/organization, while supporting them in in working through that private shit.
In a more public space like described here, you haven’t done the vetting to make that model work, so you simply have to acknowledge that it exists, but not let people put those needs above other people’s needs, or the values of the organization.
So in the general itervention ought to happen.But I still find it contradctory that “nobody intervenes” in this case. I think the intervention needs to happen in some form or its a case of passive “let the problem fester” type of situation. It is expressed in passive voice when actual situations happen when particular humans do stuff. I think in my mind there are two models with different primary moving actors which it is not clear which one is to be followed or if either is implied by the principle.
When a lot of responcibility is placed on the speaker to moderate themselfs those decisons are less accessible to the public discussion. There is a conflict. One one hand you need to express what your needs are so that others know to balance their needs against yours. But on the other hand if you appear as “needy” you will be percieved as a problem element. If people statistically signicifantly can’t say what their needs are the Maturity principle becomes relativily empty as the needs of others are not known. It’s a relevant case where the “needs of the many people in the community” are known to be inaccurate or outright fictious (and to get to there there would need to be intervening stages where they are suspected to be so etc).With fixed goals everybody will try to disguise their objective as the accepted objective but with flexible objectives there is a new kind of strife about whos private objectives are among the flex goals. And the tension between people whos objectives are just-in and just-out can get pretty intense.