The core problem here is that the child is behaving in a way that you do not want them to behave in.
I find that the best way is to treat them like foolish and inexperienced adults from the start. What do you do when an adult does something that you don’t want them to do?
-”Please don’t do that”
-”why not?”
-explanation
You’ll have to engage in a debate now, much as you might with a spouse or roommate. If the child has a convincing argument, then allow yourself to be convinced. If the child’s preference is strong, consider a compromise. Obedience isn’t the goal here—the goal is to create an effective and autonomous person.
If you find that the behavior is really, truly unacceptable, you pull out the trump card: “If you do X, I will be sad and disappointed in you.” Don’t overuse this—it’s actually very distressing to a child (Imagine if a friend or SO said that to you). Only use this when you would actually be sad and disappointed, or you will come across as emotionally manipulative and possibly transfer that behavior to the child.
And if that doesn’t work, there is really nothing you can do, and it might be time to instill more coercive measures. However, do consider that most psychologically normal children will feel emotionally compelled to remedy the situation, in order to retain good standing within the tribe. The fact that they still aren’t listening means that they’ve got a severe emotional pull in the other direction, and you’ve trapped them between a rock and a hard place. Assuming a child has no mental abnormalities, you should consider the notion that your demands might actually be unreasonable.
The main trouble with my approach is that parents are often old and tired people, who are unable to sustain debate with energetic children. I see older parents try this approach, and find themselves consistently losing arguments because they are too impatient to finish them...which is when they switch to lazy shortcuts, such as playing the part of an authority and placing external consequences on behavior.
I’ve got no idea how to deal with the problem of limited parental energy, other than recommending that those who are suffering from it take measures in exercise and nutrition to improve their mental and physical health. Just consider though—if this were an adult, you’d have to do it the hard way. You couldn’t just impose your will. Imposing your will is cheating.
Disclaimer—I haven’t raised children—these are just my interactions with parents, interactions with children, and a fairly recent experience of childhood. Also, among the people who i know that have what I judge to be healthy attitudes towards morality and authority most report being raised in this sort of way (not sure if cause or effect—it’s possible that the type of child you have influences your parenting style).
A long comment and one that seems to draw conclusions that are not really supported by my too short post (I really shouldn’t have posted in Comments). But the comment poses a few point’s I’d like to address.
The core problem here is that the child is behaving in a way that you do not want them to behave in.
Wanting the child to do something is one reason. Concrete needs another. You wouldn’t disagree that I’d need to call back a small child from a high traffic street or a cliff or a dangerous animal or a poisonous thing. These are immediate and obvious. How much time to take with a child that want’s to pick up stones when you are on the way to kindergarten or the job is a moderate need you have to balance your own desires with the childs.
Maintaining a household with six persons can mean one does everything or all share a part of the work. And there are lots of differnt ways to achieve some balance of needs in this. But whatever the balance is—it involves certain feedback. Talking alone will not do it—although it is necccessary to establish a context.
the trump card: “If you do X, I will be sad and disappointed in you.”
I can’t use that. First of all it would be a lie. I wouldn’t be sad or disappointed. At worst I would ask me what I did wrong in the first place. Second I can’t bear applying emotional pressure. Third I have seen it used on my children and it didn’t work.
The main trouble with my approach is that [...] older parents try this approach, and find themselves consistently losing arguments [and then] switch to lazy shortcuts, such as playing the part of an authority [...]
Sure that is a way out that sometimes has to be taken—because sometimes you are tired and the smaller children need to sleep because they don’t understand that they have to go to kindergarten the next day early...
And I have lots arguments with my older children and not played the authority card. I accepted that I erred.
One problem with arguments with children can be that they want to win and use all the rhetoric tricks they have at their disposal. They didn’t read EYs posts on the dangers of rhetoric and fully general counter arguments. An argument with a child isn’t neccessarily a harmonious thing. At least not when a significant issue is on the line.
You will not resolve such an issue with patience. I try often enough. And I can ‘win’ by patience. Once I lost an hour of range and no agreement in the middle of the day while three other children were unattended.
Just consider though—if this were an adult, you’d have to do it the hard way.
The hard way with an adult would often enough mean to go different ways. That is an option that is closed for parents. Both by their affection toward their children as well as by our society.
these are just my interactions with parents, interactions with children
Interacting with other persons children is quite different from with your own. And exactly beause they are not yours. You can send them back to their parents and they can go back their parents and in such a situation they basically behave like autonomous persons (if they feel safe but aduls also have to feel safe).
Wanting the child to do something is one reason. Concrete needs another. You wouldn’t disagree that I’d need to call back a small child from a high traffic street or a cliff or a dangerous animal or a poisonous thing. These are immediate and obvious.
But there are still parents who handle those occasions just fine without resorting to punishments and rewards.
My parents never seriously resorted to modeling my behavior though behavorism.
It may be that you lack a relationship with your kids where that’s possible. Especially if you already have rules that get enforced through punishments and rewards the kid will rightly assume that a new rule that isn’t enforced that way isn’t serious and the don’t have to follow.
I think it’s very hard to talk about something like parenting because different parents have success with different strategies and most think that their own experience should be guiding for all. It’s like politics in it’s mind killing potential.
It’s important to recognize that not all children respond to the same incentives.
I have a parentally anti-authortarian master game theorist for a six year old whose “natural consequences” are often disastrous. It takes a lot of finesse to manipulate him. A combination of honest, fun engagement and honest, threatened punishments. That’s not a necessary or desirable response to other children though.
That sounds familiar. I have four of these but at least it is not that disastrous mostly. Threatened punishments don’t really work. I can’t use them. I’m not behind them and if I must it dosn’t go well. My wife does sometimes and it works—but not for long. Finesse with incentives and patience work best. But these require resources that are not always avilable.
If the child’s preference is strong, consider a compromise.
If you mean strong in comparison with your own preference that they don’t do that, I don’t think that would work. It would just incentivize the child to always have very strong preferences. To want that they want right now very strongly. The child would become a little utility monster.
Theoretically it might work if you mean “strong compared to the child’s other preferences”. Then you might tell the child, “if you eat this icecream, your belly will hurt later”. But children do much more time discounting than adults, so that’s hard too.
If you mean strong in comparison with your own preference that they don’t do that, I don’t think that would work. It would just incentivize the child to always have very strong preferences.
I think it should mean “If your estimate of the child’s preference is strong, consider a compromise”.
Sure, but how do you define or measure an estimate of the child’s preference strength, when the child is incentivized to represent all preference as maximally strong?
The core problem here is that the child is behaving in a way that you do not want them to behave in.
I find that the best way is to treat them like foolish and inexperienced adults from the start. What do you do when an adult does something that you don’t want them to do?
-”Please don’t do that” -”why not?” -explanation
You’ll have to engage in a debate now, much as you might with a spouse or roommate. If the child has a convincing argument, then allow yourself to be convinced. If the child’s preference is strong, consider a compromise. Obedience isn’t the goal here—the goal is to create an effective and autonomous person.
If you find that the behavior is really, truly unacceptable, you pull out the trump card: “If you do X, I will be sad and disappointed in you.” Don’t overuse this—it’s actually very distressing to a child (Imagine if a friend or SO said that to you). Only use this when you would actually be sad and disappointed, or you will come across as emotionally manipulative and possibly transfer that behavior to the child.
And if that doesn’t work, there is really nothing you can do, and it might be time to instill more coercive measures. However, do consider that most psychologically normal children will feel emotionally compelled to remedy the situation, in order to retain good standing within the tribe. The fact that they still aren’t listening means that they’ve got a severe emotional pull in the other direction, and you’ve trapped them between a rock and a hard place. Assuming a child has no mental abnormalities, you should consider the notion that your demands might actually be unreasonable.
The main trouble with my approach is that parents are often old and tired people, who are unable to sustain debate with energetic children. I see older parents try this approach, and find themselves consistently losing arguments because they are too impatient to finish them...which is when they switch to lazy shortcuts, such as playing the part of an authority and placing external consequences on behavior.
I’ve got no idea how to deal with the problem of limited parental energy, other than recommending that those who are suffering from it take measures in exercise and nutrition to improve their mental and physical health. Just consider though—if this were an adult, you’d have to do it the hard way. You couldn’t just impose your will. Imposing your will is cheating.
Disclaimer—I haven’t raised children—these are just my interactions with parents, interactions with children, and a fairly recent experience of childhood. Also, among the people who i know that have what I judge to be healthy attitudes towards morality and authority most report being raised in this sort of way (not sure if cause or effect—it’s possible that the type of child you have influences your parenting style).
A long comment and one that seems to draw conclusions that are not really supported by my too short post (I really shouldn’t have posted in Comments). But the comment poses a few point’s I’d like to address.
Wanting the child to do something is one reason. Concrete needs another. You wouldn’t disagree that I’d need to call back a small child from a high traffic street or a cliff or a dangerous animal or a poisonous thing. These are immediate and obvious.
How much time to take with a child that want’s to pick up stones when you are on the way to kindergarten or the job is a moderate need you have to balance your own desires with the childs. Maintaining a household with six persons can mean one does everything or all share a part of the work. And there are lots of differnt ways to achieve some balance of needs in this. But whatever the balance is—it involves certain feedback. Talking alone will not do it—although it is necccessary to establish a context.
I can’t use that. First of all it would be a lie. I wouldn’t be sad or disappointed. At worst I would ask me what I did wrong in the first place. Second I can’t bear applying emotional pressure. Third I have seen it used on my children and it didn’t work.
Sure that is a way out that sometimes has to be taken—because sometimes you are tired and the smaller children need to sleep because they don’t understand that they have to go to kindergarten the next day early...
And I have lots arguments with my older children and not played the authority card. I accepted that I erred.
One problem with arguments with children can be that they want to win and use all the rhetoric tricks they have at their disposal. They didn’t read EYs posts on the dangers of rhetoric and fully general counter arguments. An argument with a child isn’t neccessarily a harmonious thing. At least not when a significant issue is on the line. You will not resolve such an issue with patience. I try often enough. And I can ‘win’ by patience. Once I lost an hour of range and no agreement in the middle of the day while three other children were unattended.
The hard way with an adult would often enough mean to go different ways. That is an option that is closed for parents. Both by their affection toward their children as well as by our society.
Interacting with other persons children is quite different from with your own. And exactly beause they are not yours. You can send them back to their parents and they can go back their parents and in such a situation they basically behave like autonomous persons (if they feel safe but aduls also have to feel safe).
But there are still parents who handle those occasions just fine without resorting to punishments and rewards. My parents never seriously resorted to modeling my behavior though behavorism.
It may be that you lack a relationship with your kids where that’s possible. Especially if you already have rules that get enforced through punishments and rewards the kid will rightly assume that a new rule that isn’t enforced that way isn’t serious and the don’t have to follow.
I think it’s very hard to talk about something like parenting because different parents have success with different strategies and most think that their own experience should be guiding for all. It’s like politics in it’s mind killing potential.
It’s important to recognize that not all children respond to the same incentives.
I have a parentally anti-authortarian master game theorist for a six year old whose “natural consequences” are often disastrous. It takes a lot of finesse to manipulate him. A combination of honest, fun engagement and honest, threatened punishments. That’s not a necessary or desirable response to other children though.
That sounds familiar. I have four of these but at least it is not that disastrous mostly. Threatened punishments don’t really work. I can’t use them. I’m not behind them and if I must it dosn’t go well. My wife does sometimes and it works—but not for long. Finesse with incentives and patience work best. But these require resources that are not always avilable.
If you mean strong in comparison with your own preference that they don’t do that, I don’t think that would work. It would just incentivize the child to always have very strong preferences. To want that they want right now very strongly. The child would become a little utility monster.
Theoretically it might work if you mean “strong compared to the child’s other preferences”. Then you might tell the child, “if you eat this icecream, your belly will hurt later”. But children do much more time discounting than adults, so that’s hard too.
I think it should mean “If your estimate of the child’s preference is strong, consider a compromise”.
Sure, but how do you define or measure an estimate of the child’s preference strength, when the child is incentivized to represent all preference as maximally strong?
Experience :-)