It does seem strange that a website commonly associated with techno-futurism, such as LessWrong, would end up with even the most tangential networked association with an intellectual current, such as neoreaction, that commonly includes nostalgia for absolute monarchies and other avatistic obessions.
Not so strange when you take into account they appeal to the same intellectual hipster personality.
Perhaps blame it on Yvain, AKA Scott Alexander of slatestarcodex.com for attaching this strange intellectual node to LessWrong.
There already were several regular LWers with reactionary ideas (e.g. Konkvistador and earlier Vladimir_M) before Yvain wrote his Nutshell.
Neoreaction says, “There is objective value in the principle of “perpetuating biological and/or civilizational complexity” itself*; the best way to perpetuate biological and/or civilizational complexity is to “serve Gnon” (i.e. devote our efforts to fulfilling nature’s pre-requisites for perpetuating our biologial and/or civilizational complexity); our subjective values are spandrels manufactured by natural selection/Gnon; insofar as our subjective values motivate us to serve Gnon and thereby ensure the perpetuation of biological and/or civilizational complexity, our subjective values are useful. (For example, natural selection makes sex a subjective value by making it pleasurable, which then motivates us to perpetuate our biological complexity). But, insofar as our subjective values mislead us from serving Gnon (such as by making non-procreative sex still feel good) and jeopardize our biological/civilizational perpetuation, we must sacrifice our subjective values for the objective good of perpetuating our biological/civilizational complexity” (such as by buckling down and having procreative sex even if one would personally rather not enjoy raising kids).
I dunno, by this definition Tim Tyler would be neoreactionary but AFAICT he has very little else in common with Moldbug or Anissimov.
If humanity is threatened with dysgenic decline, perhaps a democratic world government organizes a eugenics program.
Few mainstream progressivists would be OK with that.
On average, people have, or can be trained to have, far-sighted discount functions (progressivism), vs. people typically have short-sighted discount functions (neoreaction).
Not quite. IIUC, neoreactionaries say that humans had better be trained (or selectively bred) to have far-sighted discount functions, whereas progressivists don’t worry about that.
Perhaps what worries neoreactionaries, though, is not so much the fear of a global planetary baby shortage, but rather a localized baby shortage among Westerners or Whites. Maybe they fear that all babies are not created equal....
If humanity is threatened with dysgenic decline, perhaps a democratic world government organizes a eugenics program.
Few mainstream progressivists would be OK with that.
That is because they do not currently see dysgenic decline as a problem. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. But if they ever became convinced that it was a serious problem...that the only people who were willing to voluntarily restrain their reproduction were the smart ones, and the Earth was getting re-populated only by the less-smart ones on average, to the extent that it threatened the very maintenance of civilization...yes, if somehow you could convince progressives of this (imagine if perhaps the world had indeed turned into a carbon-copy of the world in the movie “Idiocracy” and no progressives could deny it any more...well, what would progressives do? Agree to the social darwinism that the neoreactionaries offer? No way. Plug their fingers in their ears and pretend the problem didn’t exist? Not if the problem were self-evidently bad enough. Depend on voluntary initiatives? Then you are right back to the problem. The only way I could see of seriously addressing the problem while remaining true to progressivist principles would be a global eugenics program overseen by a democratic world government. This is the logical endpoint of progressivist principles when applied to this problem. And you know...me personally, I would be fine with such a eugenics program.
The only way I could see of seriously addressing the problem while remaining true to progressivist principles would be a global eugenics program overseen by a democratic world government.
This is a good illustration of the difference between how Progressives and NRx approach problems.
First a Neoreactionary would point out the obvious problem with this approach: you have democratic governments attempting to implement eugenic policies which will affect what the future voters will be like. Thus this system has a very strong and undesirable attractor, namely the politicians eugenically breed the kind of people who will reelect them.
The NRx approach to dealing with proliferation of low time preference people is to reduce/eliminate the welfare state and let them die out as a natural consequence of their own short sighted behavior.
The NRx approach to dealing with proliferation of low time preference people is to reduce/eliminate the welfare state and let them die out as a natural consequence of their own short sighted behavior.
As far as I can tell, people with low time preference didn’t die out in the past, when welfare states were smaller (when they existed at all). Which suggests to me that the NRx approach wouldn’t achieve the goal set by its proponents.
I can’t tell if you’re trying to be sarcastic, but it very well might.
A unelected king has an interest in the success and prosperity of his kingdom. An elected politician has that interest only as long as he can ensure he keeps getting elected. Thus giving him a tool for getting reelected that’s at best orthogonal to the good of the state is a very dangerous thing to do.
A unelected king has an interest in the success and prosperity of his kingdom.
No, an unelected king has an interest in the amount of success and prosperity that can be extracted from his country and transferred to himself and (possibly) his heirs. The rulers of North Korea live like, well, kings, and their country has a lower GDP per capita than Bangladesh and Sudan.
But they aren’t Kings. In particular there is nothing in the North Korean “constitution” that says the son of the previous ruler will inherit. This means they must spend all their effort scheming to have the family stay in power. Also because of this they behave in a more short sighted manner than they would otherwise.
This is indeed true—military dictatorships, including the Roman Empire, tend to be notoriously insecure and horrible at dealing with succession—but even European monarchs have had plenty of disputed successions and civil wars.
but even European monarchs have had plenty of disputed successions and civil wars.
That’s because you’re taking the highlights from over a millennium of history over multiple countries. Herearea few examples from MoreRight of systematically going through all Kings in a dynasty and evaluating them.
In particular there is nothing in the North Korean “constitution” that says the son of the previous ruler will inherit.
OTOH, same applied to Venetian doges and yet as far I can tell medieval/early modern Venice wasn’t a hellhole by medieval/early modern standards, so that’s not all that’s going on.
The new ethics will hold life to be a privilege and a responsibility, not a sort of night refuge for base spirits out of the void; and the alternative in right conduct between living fully, beautifully, and efficiently will be to die. For a multitude of contemptible and silly creatures, fear-driven and helpless and useless, unhappy or hatefully happy in the midst of squalid dishonour, feeble, ugly, inefficient, born of unrestrained lusts, and increasing and multiplying through sheer incontinence and stupidity, the men of the New Republic will have little pity and less benevolence. To make life convenient for the breeding of such people will seem to them not the most virtuous and amiable thing in the world, as it is held to be now, but an exceedingly abominable proceeding. Procreation is an avoidable thing for sane persons of even the most furious passions, and the men of the New Republic will hold that the procreation of children who, by the circumstances of their parentage, must be diseased bodily or mentally—I do not think it will be difficult for the medical science of the coming time to define such circumstances—is absolutely the most loathsome of all conceivable sins. They will hold, I anticipate, that a certain portion of the population—the small minority, for example, afflicted with indisputably transmissible diseases, with transmissible mental disorders, with such hideous incurable habits of mind as the craving for intoxication—exists only on sufferance, out of pity and patience, and on the understanding that they do not propagate; and I do not foresee any reason to suppose that they will hesitate to kill when that sufferance is abused. And I imagine also the plea and proof that a grave criminal is also insane will be regarded by them not as a reason for mercy, but as an added reason for death. I do not see how they can think otherwise on the principles they will profess.
First of all, I applaud your courage!
Not so strange when you take into account they appeal to the same intellectual hipster personality.
There already were several regular LWers with reactionary ideas (e.g. Konkvistador and earlier Vladimir_M) before Yvain wrote his Nutshell.
I dunno, by this definition Tim Tyler would be neoreactionary but AFAICT he has very little else in common with Moldbug or Anissimov.
Few mainstream progressivists would be OK with that.
Not quite. IIUC, neoreactionaries say that humans had better be trained (or selectively bred) to have far-sighted discount functions, whereas progressivists don’t worry about that.
You can lose the “perhaps” and the “mabye”.
That is because they do not currently see dysgenic decline as a problem. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. But if they ever became convinced that it was a serious problem...that the only people who were willing to voluntarily restrain their reproduction were the smart ones, and the Earth was getting re-populated only by the less-smart ones on average, to the extent that it threatened the very maintenance of civilization...yes, if somehow you could convince progressives of this (imagine if perhaps the world had indeed turned into a carbon-copy of the world in the movie “Idiocracy” and no progressives could deny it any more...well, what would progressives do? Agree to the social darwinism that the neoreactionaries offer? No way. Plug their fingers in their ears and pretend the problem didn’t exist? Not if the problem were self-evidently bad enough. Depend on voluntary initiatives? Then you are right back to the problem. The only way I could see of seriously addressing the problem while remaining true to progressivist principles would be a global eugenics program overseen by a democratic world government. This is the logical endpoint of progressivist principles when applied to this problem. And you know...me personally, I would be fine with such a eugenics program.
This is a good illustration of the difference between how Progressives and NRx approach problems.
First a Neoreactionary would point out the obvious problem with this approach: you have democratic governments attempting to implement eugenic policies which will affect what the future voters will be like. Thus this system has a very strong and undesirable attractor, namely the politicians eugenically breed the kind of people who will reelect them.
The NRx approach to dealing with proliferation of low time preference people is to reduce/eliminate the welfare state and let them die out as a natural consequence of their own short sighted behavior.
As far as I can tell, people with low time preference didn’t die out in the past, when welfare states were smaller (when they existed at all). Which suggests to me that the NRx approach wouldn’t achieve the goal set by its proponents.
Getting rid of elections will really help with that,
I can’t tell if you’re trying to be sarcastic, but it very well might.
A unelected king has an interest in the success and prosperity of his kingdom. An elected politician has that interest only as long as he can ensure he keeps getting elected. Thus giving him a tool for getting reelected that’s at best orthogonal to the good of the state is a very dangerous thing to do.
A sane and competent king has an interest in the success and prosperity of his kingdom.
An insane or incompetent one is there for life.
Unlike an elected politician.
No, an unelected king has an interest in the amount of success and prosperity that can be extracted from his country and transferred to himself and (possibly) his heirs. The rulers of North Korea live like, well, kings, and their country has a lower GDP per capita than Bangladesh and Sudan.
But they aren’t Kings. In particular there is nothing in the North Korean “constitution” that says the son of the previous ruler will inherit. This means they must spend all their effort scheming to have the family stay in power. Also because of this they behave in a more short sighted manner than they would otherwise.
If you think Kings never do this, you know little about history.
This is indeed true—military dictatorships, including the Roman Empire, tend to be notoriously insecure and horrible at dealing with succession—but even European monarchs have had plenty of disputed successions and civil wars.
That’s because you’re taking the highlights from over a millennium of history over multiple countries. Here are a few examples from MoreRight of systematically going through all Kings in a dynasty and evaluating them.
OTOH, same applied to Venetian doges and yet as far I can tell medieval/early modern Venice wasn’t a hellhole by medieval/early modern standards, so that’s not all that’s going on.
A century ago, the predecessors to today’s progressives explicitly described a lot of the human species as suboptimal, and they advocated improving the breed. H.G. Wells, for example, wrote: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/19229/19229-h/19229-h.htm