Personally, I don’t think that the military helps. The claim is implausible as personality traits are pretty stubborn things. Anecdotes are definitely confounded as militaries these days can be selective (literally administering IQ tests), and young men who enlist will mature as a simple matter of time. Military-style boot camps are one of the juvenile justice interventions we can say don’t work well or maybe at all (“Preventing future offending of delinquents and offenders: what have we learned from experiments and meta-analyses?”, Mackenzie & Farrington 2015) despite being aimed at the ‘youngsters’ who ought to most benefit from not being ‘fuckups’ and being aimed much more explicitly at that goal with a lower bar of success. And the natural experiments I know of like the Vietnam War draft lottery show permanent large harms to income from being drafted (most famously, Angrist 1990), which is certainly not what one would expect from a magical organization which turns fuckup civilians into reliable soldiers and explains why super-competent soldiers have such difficulty comporting in & reintegrating into a civilian life of tragic incompetence everywhere.
Some confounds/conflations in the above? Like, I agree with the truth value of the specific examples you’ve cited, but I think I disagree with the implicit claim that they’re necessarily entangled with the thing Kaj is quoting.
e.g. yes, juvenile military institutions don’t prevent people from being deliquent or discourage future criminality, but that’s not to say that they don’t cause those people, while embedded, to be reliable for object-level tasks and deadlines.
Similarly, the absolute horror and chaos that was Vietnam War combat, and the subsequent shredding of the psyches of people who didn’t volunteer to be there, seems fundamentally different from e.g. modern duty on an aircraft carrier or WWII quartermastering. It doesn’t seem incoherent or contradictory to say both [military culture promotes reliability] and also [being drafted in Vietnam screws you up, military schools don’t fix teenage delinquency].
I also note that both examples cited talk about people who don’t self-select in, which—if relevant—wouldn’t surprise me.
I think “implausible because personality traits are pretty stubborn” is an overconfident statement—personality traits are pretty stubborn, but being thoroughly embedded in a culture that forces you to practice certain skills and surrounds you with coherent social pressures is also pretty stubborn. And in point of fact, while within that context, culture clearly dominates over personality traits, whatever else happens afterwards.
If I’ve misunderstood your claims, please forgive and correct—I feel like I might’ve missed your crux.
Duncan’s comment already touched upon this, but just to highlight it: both of your cited studies are about situations where people were literally forced to join against their will; the Vietnam example additionally has those people exposed to the horror that was Vietnam. Being forced to join something against one’s will tends to make people very resistant against the norms advocated there, and even to actively behave in the opposite way as soon as they get out of there. (I’m reminded of all the kids who decided, for many years afterwards, they want to have nothing to do with sports or exercise because they had to suffer through school gym class.) It’s not a condition where you’d even expect to get much of the internalized pride in the group norms, and desire to act accordingly, that was discussed in my quote.
I get that you picked those studies to combat the confounding from selection (both in the military screening its candidates and the candidates themselves self-selecting), but the context of this discussion was “is Dragon Army a good idea”. Dragon Army participants are also going to be both self-selected and heavily screened for suitability, so whether or not this kind of an intervention would work for the population at large isn’t actually the question we’re interested in.
Personally, I don’t think that the military helps. The claim is implausible as personality traits are pretty stubborn things. Anecdotes are definitely confounded as militaries these days can be selective (literally administering IQ tests), and young men who enlist will mature as a simple matter of time. Military-style boot camps are one of the juvenile justice interventions we can say don’t work well or maybe at all (“Preventing future offending of delinquents and offenders: what have we learned from experiments and meta-analyses?”, Mackenzie & Farrington 2015) despite being aimed at the ‘youngsters’ who ought to most benefit from not being ‘fuckups’ and being aimed much more explicitly at that goal with a lower bar of success. And the natural experiments I know of like the Vietnam War draft lottery show permanent large harms to income from being drafted (most famously, Angrist 1990), which is certainly not what one would expect from a magical organization which turns fuckup civilians into reliable soldiers and explains why super-competent soldiers have such difficulty comporting in & reintegrating into a civilian life of tragic incompetence everywhere.
Some confounds/conflations in the above? Like, I agree with the truth value of the specific examples you’ve cited, but I think I disagree with the implicit claim that they’re necessarily entangled with the thing Kaj is quoting.
e.g. yes, juvenile military institutions don’t prevent people from being deliquent or discourage future criminality, but that’s not to say that they don’t cause those people, while embedded, to be reliable for object-level tasks and deadlines.
Similarly, the absolute horror and chaos that was Vietnam War combat, and the subsequent shredding of the psyches of people who didn’t volunteer to be there, seems fundamentally different from e.g. modern duty on an aircraft carrier or WWII quartermastering. It doesn’t seem incoherent or contradictory to say both [military culture promotes reliability] and also [being drafted in Vietnam screws you up, military schools don’t fix teenage delinquency].
I also note that both examples cited talk about people who don’t self-select in, which—if relevant—wouldn’t surprise me.
I think “implausible because personality traits are pretty stubborn” is an overconfident statement—personality traits are pretty stubborn, but being thoroughly embedded in a culture that forces you to practice certain skills and surrounds you with coherent social pressures is also pretty stubborn. And in point of fact, while within that context, culture clearly dominates over personality traits, whatever else happens afterwards.
If I’ve misunderstood your claims, please forgive and correct—I feel like I might’ve missed your crux.
Duncan’s comment already touched upon this, but just to highlight it: both of your cited studies are about situations where people were literally forced to join against their will; the Vietnam example additionally has those people exposed to the horror that was Vietnam. Being forced to join something against one’s will tends to make people very resistant against the norms advocated there, and even to actively behave in the opposite way as soon as they get out of there. (I’m reminded of all the kids who decided, for many years afterwards, they want to have nothing to do with sports or exercise because they had to suffer through school gym class.) It’s not a condition where you’d even expect to get much of the internalized pride in the group norms, and desire to act accordingly, that was discussed in my quote.
I get that you picked those studies to combat the confounding from selection (both in the military screening its candidates and the candidates themselves self-selecting), but the context of this discussion was “is Dragon Army a good idea”. Dragon Army participants are also going to be both self-selected and heavily screened for suitability, so whether or not this kind of an intervention would work for the population at large isn’t actually the question we’re interested in.
An actual military has life-and-death work. This might even be more important than consent.
A military-style “boot camp” for delinquents is a cargo cult by comparison.