I think another way to gesture at the distinction here is whether your success criteria is process-based or outcome-based.
If you’re “trying to do PR,” then you’re sort of hanging your hopes on a specific outcome—that people will hold you in high regard, say good things about you, etc. This opens you up to Goodharting, and various muggings and extortions, and sort of leaves you at the mercy of the most capricious or unreasonable member of the audience.
Whereas if you’re “trying to be honorable” (or some other similar thing), you’re attempting to engage in methods and processes that are likely to lead to good outcomes, according to your advance predictions, and which tend to produce social standing as a positive side effect. But you’re not optimizing for the social standing, except insofar as you’re contributing to a good and healthy society existing in the first place (and then slotting into it).
I see this (the thing I’m describing, which may or may not be as closely related to the thing Anna’s describing as I think it is) as sort of analogous to whether you do something like follow diplomatic procedures or use NVC (process-based), or do whatever-it-takes to make sure you don’t offend anybody (outcome-based). One of these is sort of capped and finite in a way I think is important, and the other is sort of infinitely vulnerable.
I think another way to gesture at the distinction here is whether your success criteria is process-based or outcome-based.
If you’re “trying to do PR,” then you’re sort of hanging your hopes on a specific outcome—that people will hold you in high regard, say good things about you, etc. This opens you up to Goodharting, and various muggings and extortions, and sort of leaves you at the mercy of the most capricious or unreasonable member of the audience.
Whereas if you’re “trying to be honorable” (or some other similar thing), you’re attempting to engage in methods and processes that are likely to lead to good outcomes, according to your advance predictions, and which tend to produce social standing as a positive side effect. But you’re not optimizing for the social standing, except insofar as you’re contributing to a good and healthy society existing in the first place (and then slotting into it).
I see this (the thing I’m describing, which may or may not be as closely related to the thing Anna’s describing as I think it is) as sort of analogous to whether you do something like follow diplomatic procedures or use NVC (process-based), or do whatever-it-takes to make sure you don’t offend anybody (outcome-based). One of these is sort of capped and finite in a way I think is important, and the other is sort of infinitely vulnerable.