Shower thought: there might be an employee at OpenAI, Anthropic, etc who is saving humanity every day by withholding an idea they have that would create an unaligned AGI. They might literally have the technical breakthrough idea that would doom the future and they are keeping it quiet. Probably not likely, but weird to think that is even a possibility.
boundary_condition
Karma: 43
Good question on paid accounts. At that point, I would guess YouTube would want to see if higher watch time correlates with lower cancellations. If more watching means less cancellations, then maybe YouTube is still financially incentivized to keep someone watching.
The point about non-ad revenue is a super interesting point that I completely missed in the first pass, thank you for bringing that up! I think we could change the main claim to something more like: “as long as YouTube gets more revenue the more a user uses the site, then YouTube is incentivized not to show you videos that cause you to leave” or similar.
As for “make sure the viewer is satisfied with time spent on YouTube” I’m not sure how they measure that? It could be anything from survey results, to a predicted score based on certain behaviors. If they were really sneaky, they could use time spent watching as a proxy metric for satisfaction. I really don’t know here what they are targeting or how they measure it.
As for ad algorithm being decoupled from recommendation algorithm, that is another interesting aspect, but I think the goal is still “keep people watching ads so we have another opportunity to run the ‘best ad for this moment’ model on them again”.
As for the conclusion sentence “Therefore, a successful “Quit YouTube” video would indeed not be promoted in the medium and long term by YouTube but not because it’s not good for ads but because it is stopping the user’s satisfaction with YouTube.” I am still not entirely convinced by pinning the conclusion on user satisfaction. It seems more likely to me that YouTube is a revenue machine rather than a satisfaction machine, otherwise they would just turn off ads entirely. I would still lean towards something like “Therefore, a successful “Quit YouTube” video would indeed not be promoted in the medium and long term by YouTube but not because it’s not good for ads but because it is stopping the user’s future interactions that have a chance of being monetized in any manner of ways, including superlikes, memberships, ads, etc”
Thanks again for the thoughts and the non-ad direction, lots to think about!
Many good points and good question about how people actually quit! I don’t know for sure how people quit, and this post mainly addresses the narrower case of a single video causing someone to quit immediately for some measurable amount of time. Two mechanisms being considered right now: people quit on one dramatic change, versus people incrementally update over time until they ease over the boundary of quitting. It would be cool to see surveys of people who quit and see if quitting is gradual or something suddenly clicks.
It would also be interesting to what extent YouTube can deduce what videos correlate with users quitting and punish them regardless of their immediate chain breaking. For example, YouTube could look at two batches of comparable viewers, half who saw a certain video and half who didn’t, and see how many are still viewing an hour, day, week, month, and year later. I suspect with enough data YouTube could find some connections.
Additionally, maybe YouTube could gather user leaving or use reduction stats by channel rather than viewer. That way YouTube could gain confidence that a certain channel rarely makes people leave, so YouTube can recommend the content quickly while it is still relevant.
As for ad free success, I’m not sure if it is the same for all users but I searched Scott the Woz and clicked on the first video and got a pre-roll video ad, then clicked a second video with no ad, then clicked on the next Scott video and got a sponsored ad below the video.Thanks for all the great points, I suppose it’s time to start making additional predicted observations for these different directions and see!
Good thought! Maybe a different approach to the same goal: sometimes if I watch a really good video but want to leave YouTube, I’ll search for something I don’t like and then leave partway through, hopefully putting most of the leaving penalty on something I don’t like.
A YouTube Video Will Probably Never Help You Quit YouTube
mikedet’s Shortform
Protect what already works only resonates when people think it is working.
Mike DeTEpistemic status:
I have seen people disagree about risking big changes that might break an existing system. People seemed to be somewhat missing each other’s positions, and it seems to boil down to if someone thinks the current system is working or not. I wanted to try summarizing the idea, and seeing if anyone has insights about it or evidence to disprove or update it. This is my first public writing so please give all feedback and advice that might help out. Thanks!Summary:
People often use the following argument:
(What we currently have is working) AND (Things would be worse if they went from working to not working) Therefore (We should protect what we already have)They evaluate this argument to:
True and True therefore True.
However, sometimes “what we currently have is working” is false for some people. They evaluate the statement as:
False and True therefore False.
In this case, they logically conclude that it is not the case that we should protect what we already have. This is interesting because many arguments revolve around if we should protect what we already have, but should really be about if what we currently have is working.
Examples and explanations:
Protecting what is already working is an extremely valuable approach to many problems. Here are some examples where protecting what already works is extremely important:
• A team is upgrading an assembly line. The assembly line produces $100k of parts per day, and costs $50k labor + $45k materials = $95k to run each day, for a profit of $5k per day. The team is hoping to improve throughput on the rate-limiting step, which would improve output to $105k of parts per day. The team is extremely careful not to risk the existing operation of the plant, because taking the line down for a day might still cost $50k in labor waiting at a broken line, but $0 of output or profit, for a loss of $50k per day. It will take 10 days of profit to make up for every 1 day of downtime. Protecting what works is extremely valuable. Changing nothing and running exactly as-is is a perfectly viable strategy. Improvements are only worth pursuing if they are unlikely to interrupt what is already working.
• A team of polar explorers have two aircraft at their research base. One of the aircraft has a major engine issue and is not flightworthy. The other aircraft is working perfectly. The explorers need an aircraft to leave before the worst of winter sets in, so the team takes extra care protecting the one working airplane while trying to fix the other airplane. By protecting the working airplane, they protect their ability to safely leave.
• A plumber is sent to fix plumbing in a building. The building has two bathrooms: one broken and one working. The plumber is extra careful to avoid breaking or interrupting the one working bathroom, because the building occupants can currently get by with one bathroom, but will be completely blocked by having no bathrooms.
• A regular service worker in a regular, uninteresting, low-paid job can just barely afford rent, food, transportation, and a tiny bit of entertainment. They don’t particularly enjoy their job, and they aren’t thrilled with their apartment. They would prefer to find a new job, but they highly value and protect keeping their current job, because their current income covers the necessities.Usually when the current situation is better than the worst situation, it is worth some effort to protect the current situation. Even more compelling is that protecting an existing situation is often easier than getting to that situation in the first place. For example, it is usually easier to keep equipment running than to build it the first time. It is often easier to keep a pathway open than to create it. It is often easier to not break something than to fix it. It is often easier to keep a job than to get a new one.
If all of this is the case, why do people sometimes choose pathways that endanger what is already working? Let’s put forth the simple argument for why to protect what is working:
(What we currently have is working) AND (Things would be worse if they went from working to not working) Therefore (We should protect what we already have)
This simple A and B therefore C argument usually evaluates to:
True and True therefore True.Here is the key: for some people, they perceive what is already here as not working. Either the current situation isn’t working, or they think it isn’t working, but to them, the argument:
(What we currently have is working) AND (Things would be worse if they went from working to not working) Therefore (We should protect what we already have)
Evaluates to:
False and True therefore FalseThey don’t believe what we currently have is working, therefore they logically don’t think we should protect it.
It is tempting to write these people off as wrong or ungrateful, but I would urge compassion and real effort to understand that point of view. The situation may really not be working for them, or the news and people around them might have genuinely convinced them that the situation is not working. If it is their genuine belief that the current situation is not working, then it is reasonable and understandable that they don’t care to protect it.
To understand the beliefs and behaviors of someone who believes that what we currently have is not working, let’s look at some of the original examples modified such that the current situation is not working:
• A team approaches a halted assembly line. The assembly line is supposed to produce $100k per day and cost $50k labor and $45k materials = $95k to run, but is currently broken so produces $0 and costs $50k in idle labor, for a loss of $50k per day. The team considers all kinds of drastic measures, like sawing out sections of conveyor belt and putting manual workbench stations to do the job of the broken machinery. They consider taking parts from a small, working $4k per day assembly line to fix the bigger assembly line, breaking the small line in the process. They consider producing entirely different parts or selling partially processed materials, and countless other drastic options, because almost anything is better than the current situation.
• A team of polar explorers have two aircraft at their research base. Both aircraft are not flight worthy: one has the end of the wing damaged in a wind storm, and the other had both engines destroyed in an unexpected extremely cold night that froze the coolant and cracked the engine blocks.The team decides to pull engines from the first plane and install them in the second plane, in order to make one working plane. Normally, they wouldn’t sacrifice a 99% working plane to fix another plane, however they are doomed with no working airplanes and being stuck during the winter, so they will try anything to increase their chances of having one working airplane and being able to leave.
• A plumber is sent to fix a building with two bathrooms. Both bathrooms are broken, so the building is unusable. The plumber sees one bathroom has working pipes, and the other bathroom has a working toilet, so they pull the intact toilet and put it on the intact plumbing to make one working bathroom. The other bathroom is now double-destroyed, with no toilet and broken pipes, but at least the building went from zero bathrooms to one bathroom and can reopen.
• A regular service worker in a regular, uninteresting, low-paid job can barely not afford rent, food, and transportation. After cutting every expense they can, they are still $200 short per month and desperately fill that gap with a credit card. They are on track to run out of credit in 3 months and lose their apartment. They look into all kinds of extreme solutions, from applying to jobs they aren’t qualified to do, to living in a car, to outright theft, to joining aggressive protests, to risky sports betting or stock market options gambling. They don’t like these options, but the current situation isn’t working, so they are forced to try almost anything else.In these examples, it should seem far more reasonable that people don’t want to protect what they already have, because what they already have isn’t working. Instead of preserving a working baseline, they are instead thinking, “desperate times call for desperate measures,” or “anything is worth a shot when you have nothing to lose.”
The takeaways:
1: If you are trying to convince someone to protect something, consider if it is working for them. If it isn’t working for them, they are unlikely to be convinced that it needs to be protected. Consider if you can change your approach to address why the current system isn’t working for them. It probably won’t work to insist the system is working for them when they can see with their own experience that it is not.
2: Sometimes people don’t realize that a system is working for them, or they don’t realize the extent to which it is working for them, or they don’t realize how much worse their situation could be without the system. If someone is mistaken about if the system is working, spend your effort convincing them of the ways the system is working for them instead of only insisting that the system needs to be protected. If they become convinced that the current system has benefits, they will naturally weight in protecting it. If they are mistaken and think the system is not working for them, then addressing the misunderstanding is the key to convincing them to protect what they already have.
3: Sometimes, it really is the best option to do drastic things that endanger the current system, if the current system doesn’t work. Sometimes a logical polar explorer would rather risk two broken airplanes for a chance of one working airplane, because either it works and they live, or it doesn’t work and they still have two broken airplanes. They are no worse off than when they started.
Next steps:
This idea feels relevant to many situations and it would be interesting to hear thoughts or explore:
• How much does “protect what already works only resonates when people think it is working” apply to recent dramatic election results around the world?
• What testable predictions or observations could someone make using this idea? Can this idea make predictions about housing, zoning, healthcare, education, debt, etc?
• What corporate implications does this have? What does this mean for a company with the core business threatened?
• What would this idea imply for conflicts between nations?
• Is the opposite problem common, where someone thinks what they currently have is working, but it actually isn’t and therefore shouldn’t be protected?
I’m trying to think a bit about the future influencing the past in the potato chip example. In order to really separate out what is causing the decision, I’m imagining changing various factors.
For example, imagine the potato chips are actually some new healthy version that would not make the eater feel bad in the future. In this case, the eater still believes the chips will make them feel bad and still avoids eating. In this case, the future being different didn’t change the past, suggesting they may not be so tightly linked.
Next consider someone who has always enjoyed chips and never felt bad afterwards. Unknown to them, the next bag of chips is spoiled and they will feel bad after eating. In this case, they may choose to eat the chips, suggesting the future didn’t directly control the past action.
Since changing the future outcome of the chips doesn’t change the decision, but changing the past experiences of other chips does change the outcome, I suspect the real causation here is the past causes the person’s present model of the future, which is often enough correct about the future that it looks like the future is causing things. I’m not sure about this next part but: in the limit of perfect prediction, the observable outcomes may approach being identical between past causing model and future causing past.