This comment might be a bit on the bleak side, so let me know how it lands. Asking meta-questions can lead to scary thoughts and feelings, as what was before a concrete wall of irreconcilable dualities, might open its doors if you are able and willing to push them open—and leave some innocence and repression behind.
“We shall here define progress as the increasing control of the environment by life.”
I guess I just don’t think reality or humanity is that simple and that reducing the richness and complexity of the human story to this one magic word ~*progress*~ is like calling forth an egregore that we will quickly (and inevitably) lose control of.
You are sifting through a lot of different perspectives in your text, asking questions more than a simple one.
If you look at your initial definition of progress, there are some things that come to mind.
Your definition of progress caught my eye. Life, or in this specific instance, humans, are themselves a continuation/part of the environment, are they not? In your text you write about human history, but humans are made up of atoms, the same one we have around us. Mainly oxygen, carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, calcium and phosphorus. In other words, what would ‘increasing control’ in this scenario mean?
Some years back I read this quote “We are the Universe reflecting upon itself”. Which, if you look at it, seems to mirror the idea of the video by PBS Space Time “Does the Universe Create itself?” (10:30 min in—Participatory Universe). If it is the actionable observation each of us make, then to me ‘progress’ seems to better mirror the chaotic realities we have in the world, as each of us are reflecting in very different ways.
With regard to the spirit world, there are some that talk about it and dig into it; an example would be my partner. Even though it is very different from my own abstract intuition, I wouldn’t say it produces thoughts and knowledge that is somehow separate from our existence, even when it is on a seemingly foreign frequency.
Moral progress… I sometimes wonder at that. Our current environment gives some of us much more time and energy, and much safer societies, to explore and delve into and develop our moral fibers. That might be a good thing, but is it progress, or just environmental change that precludes the change? I mean, a crocodile might not eat/kill you if it is more regularly fed, but that doesn’t mean it won’t try to eat you if it is hungry.
The true test to this kind of progress would be to see what would happen if the stability that is enabled through institutions of control, were to be disabled. Even though it is a kind of bleak outlook, I haven’t really heard a convincing argument for humans being ‘better’ than before. Even when some things have seen an increase on certain parameters, I don’t quite see how to argue that this is somehow based on some quantum revolution in our human condition. Yes, we have access to more food, more information, and more of us live in conditions that are less dangerous, and it might be easier to develop some capacities—but it is a notion I don’t prescribe to, to believe that people become ‘better’ from being in a better environment. Isn’t it more likely that we adapt? So when Force Major breaks out, suddenly these repressed emotions are given an outlet, not that they have been conquered or balanced.
Similarly with the universe. It might be slightly more safe for us humans, but that is just because we are doing our damndest to suppress the numerable dangers to our lives. In others words, the Universe, or the crocodile, hasn’t really changed—we are simply using a lot of energy and effort to suppress its ravenous entropy.
Progress would preferably include fundamentally changing the relationships that connect something together, changing both ends of the connection and the connection itself, to something that is preferred by both parties. Better than an ‘offline’ and deadly universe you have to protect yourself from constantly, would be a universe you could have a mutually and reciprocal relationship with—where both parties have needs, wishes and ideas on how to improve themselves, the other party as well as the connection between them. Or simply a universe where both agreed to try to make the other as miserable as possible, if that were their preferred ideal.
Progress in this context would simply be how much they are improving on the respective goals they have—and could also include some meta-evaluation of progress, and what it should/could ideally look like.
I didn’t read everything, but I like explorations like this, and so I read parts of it, and leave other parts for a potential later.
With regard to your text and its layout, I think any open exploration needs to look at its priors, the differing perspectives and dualities, to even find a useful way forward in the chaos. I don’t see you making any bold or extreme claims based on what you have written and cited, and as an exploration of a broad question, it follows the sporadic and associative logic that is to be expected when exploring.
Hello rogersbacon and others,
This comment might be a bit on the bleak side, so let me know how it lands. Asking meta-questions can lead to scary thoughts and feelings, as what was before a concrete wall of irreconcilable dualities, might open its doors if you are able and willing to push them open—and leave some innocence and repression behind.
You are sifting through a lot of different perspectives in your text, asking questions more than a simple one.
If you look at your initial definition of progress, there are some things that come to mind.
Your definition of progress caught my eye. Life, or in this specific instance, humans, are themselves a continuation/part of the environment, are they not?
In your text you write about human history, but humans are made up of atoms, the same one we have around us. Mainly oxygen, carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, calcium and phosphorus. In other words, what would ‘increasing control’ in this scenario mean?
Some years back I read this quote “We are the Universe reflecting upon itself”. Which, if you look at it, seems to mirror the idea of the video by PBS Space Time “Does the Universe Create itself?” (10:30 min in—Participatory Universe).
If it is the actionable observation each of us make, then to me ‘progress’ seems to better mirror the chaotic realities we have in the world, as each of us are reflecting in very different ways.
With regard to the spirit world, there are some that talk about it and dig into it; an example would be my partner. Even though it is very different from my own abstract intuition, I wouldn’t say it produces thoughts and knowledge that is somehow separate from our existence, even when it is on a seemingly foreign frequency.
Moral progress… I sometimes wonder at that. Our current environment gives some of us much more time and energy, and much safer societies, to explore and delve into and develop our moral fibers. That might be a good thing, but is it progress, or just environmental change that precludes the change? I mean, a crocodile might not eat/kill you if it is more regularly fed, but that doesn’t mean it won’t try to eat you if it is hungry.
The true test to this kind of progress would be to see what would happen if the stability that is enabled through institutions of control, were to be disabled. Even though it is a kind of bleak outlook, I haven’t really heard a convincing argument for humans being ‘better’ than before. Even when some things have seen an increase on certain parameters, I don’t quite see how to argue that this is somehow based on some quantum revolution in our human condition. Yes, we have access to more food, more information, and more of us live in conditions that are less dangerous, and it might be easier to develop some capacities—but it is a notion I don’t prescribe to, to believe that people become ‘better’ from being in a better environment. Isn’t it more likely that we adapt? So when Force Major breaks out, suddenly these repressed emotions are given an outlet, not that they have been conquered or balanced.
Similarly with the universe. It might be slightly more safe for us humans, but that is just because we are doing our damndest to suppress the numerable dangers to our lives. In others words, the Universe, or the crocodile, hasn’t really changed—we are simply using a lot of energy and effort to suppress its ravenous entropy.
Progress would preferably include fundamentally changing the relationships that connect something together, changing both ends of the connection and the connection itself, to something that is preferred by both parties. Better than an ‘offline’ and deadly universe you have to protect yourself from constantly, would be a universe you could have a mutually and reciprocal relationship with—where both parties have needs, wishes and ideas on how to improve themselves, the other party as well as the connection between them.
Or simply a universe where both agreed to try to make the other as miserable as possible, if that were their preferred ideal.
Progress in this context would simply be how much they are improving on the respective goals they have—and could also include some meta-evaluation of progress, and what it should/could ideally look like.
I didn’t read everything, but I like explorations like this, and so I read parts of it, and leave other parts for a potential later.
With regard to your text and its layout, I think any open exploration needs to look at its priors, the differing perspectives and dualities, to even find a useful way forward in the chaos. I don’t see you making any bold or extreme claims based on what you have written and cited, and as an exploration of a broad question, it follows the sporadic and associative logic that is to be expected when exploring.
Kindly,
Caerulea-Lawrence