I think we agree. Your statement that the unconscious is “just a big dumb array of thermostats” is just what I was trying to get across, plus as you said that it isn’t an independent mind.
I interpreted Robin (I’m still not sure if I’m right) as suggesting the unconscious is a full and separate mind whose preferences deserve respect for the same reason you’d respect another human’s preferences. So that, for example, if you wanted to stay sober but your unconscious wanted to drink, you “owe” it to your unconscious to compromise, in the same way you’d be a bad friend if you didn’t take a friend’s preferences into account. All I am trying to say is that the unconscious doesn’t deserve that kind of respect.
If you’re saying that my conscious mind can achieve its own goals better by working with the unconscious in some particular way, well, you’re the expert on that and I believe you.
So that, for example, if you wanted to stay sober but your unconscious wanted to drink, you “owe” it to your unconscious to compromise, in the same way you’d be a bad friend if you didn’t take a friend’s preferences into account. All I am trying to say is that the unconscious doesn’t deserve that kind of respect.
If you’re saying that my conscious mind can achieve its own goals better by working with the unconscious in some particular way,
Yes. The reason I argued with your notion that you shouldn’t pay any attention to your unconscious goals is because, with relatively few exceptions, your unconscious goals are your goals.
Generally, they’re either re goals you share with your unconscious (like staying alive), or goals you put in there, based on what you thought was useful or valuable at some point in your life. Once such goals are acquired, any action patterns that lead towards those goals tend to stick until better action patterns are learned, or the goal is consciously deactivated.
But it isn’t enough to say, “I don’t want X any more”, when you don’t actually know what, precisely, X is. That’s why you actually do need to pay attention to your unconscious goals, so that you can either find alternative ways to satisfy them, or verify that in fact, you no longer require them to be satisfied on your behalf.
Think of it as a safety interlock of sorts, that allows you to maintain a sincere verbal belief and expression that you don’t want X, while leaving the machinery in place to nonetheless acquire X without your conscious knowledge or consent.
To borrow the metaphor of the Sirens, your unconscious won’t untie you from the mast until you stop fighting to get free. When you once more become the person who ordered yourself tied to the mast in the first place, then and ONLY then will your unconscious accept a reversal of your original orders.
That’s why you need to pay attention to the goals, so you can step into the mental shoes of the “you” who put the goals in in the first place, and then either reconsider the original goal, or find a better way to get it that doesn’t have side effects.
But unless you can actually acknowledge the desirability of the goal in question, your unconscious effectively assumes you’re merely under social pressure to demonstrate your desire to adhere to the ways of the tribe, and ignores your attempt to give it “new orders”.
I think we agree. Your statement that the unconscious is “just a big dumb array of thermostats” is just what I was trying to get across, plus as you said that it isn’t an independent mind.
I interpreted Robin (I’m still not sure if I’m right) as suggesting the unconscious is a full and separate mind whose preferences deserve respect for the same reason you’d respect another human’s preferences. So that, for example, if you wanted to stay sober but your unconscious wanted to drink, you “owe” it to your unconscious to compromise, in the same way you’d be a bad friend if you didn’t take a friend’s preferences into account. All I am trying to say is that the unconscious doesn’t deserve that kind of respect.
If you’re saying that my conscious mind can achieve its own goals better by working with the unconscious in some particular way, well, you’re the expert on that and I believe you.
Yes. The reason I argued with your notion that you shouldn’t pay any attention to your unconscious goals is because, with relatively few exceptions, your unconscious goals are your goals.
Generally, they’re either re goals you share with your unconscious (like staying alive), or goals you put in there, based on what you thought was useful or valuable at some point in your life. Once such goals are acquired, any action patterns that lead towards those goals tend to stick until better action patterns are learned, or the goal is consciously deactivated.
But it isn’t enough to say, “I don’t want X any more”, when you don’t actually know what, precisely, X is. That’s why you actually do need to pay attention to your unconscious goals, so that you can either find alternative ways to satisfy them, or verify that in fact, you no longer require them to be satisfied on your behalf.
Think of it as a safety interlock of sorts, that allows you to maintain a sincere verbal belief and expression that you don’t want X, while leaving the machinery in place to nonetheless acquire X without your conscious knowledge or consent.
To borrow the metaphor of the Sirens, your unconscious won’t untie you from the mast until you stop fighting to get free. When you once more become the person who ordered yourself tied to the mast in the first place, then and ONLY then will your unconscious accept a reversal of your original orders.
That’s why you need to pay attention to the goals, so you can step into the mental shoes of the “you” who put the goals in in the first place, and then either reconsider the original goal, or find a better way to get it that doesn’t have side effects.
But unless you can actually acknowledge the desirability of the goal in question, your unconscious effectively assumes you’re merely under social pressure to demonstrate your desire to adhere to the ways of the tribe, and ignores your attempt to give it “new orders”.