A few quick comments, on the same theme as but mostly unrelated to the exchange so far:
I’m not very sold on “cares about xrisk” as a key metric for technical researchers. I am more interested in people who want to very deeply understand how intelligence works (whether abstractly or in neural networks in particular). I think the former is sometimes a good proxy for the latter but it’s important not to conflate them. See this post for more.
Having said that, I don’t get much of a sense that many MATS scholars want to deeply understand how intelligence works. When I walked around the poster showcase at the most recent iteration of MATS, a large majority of the projects seemed like they’d prioritized pretty “shallow” investigations. Obviously it’s hard to complete deep scientific work in three months but at least on a quick skim I didn’t see many projects that seemed like they were even heading in that direction. (I’d cite Tom Ringstrom as one example of a MATS scholar who was trying to do deep and rigorous work, though I also think that his core assumptions are wrong.)
As one characterization of an alternative approach: my intership with Owain Evans back in 2017 consisted of me basically sitting around and thinking about AI safety for three months. I had some blog posts as output but nothing particularly legible. I think this helped nudge me towards thinking more deeply about AI safety subsequently (though it’s hard to assign specific credit).
There’s an incentive alignment problem where even if mentors want scholars to spend their time thinking carefully, the scholars’ careers will benefit most from legible projects. In my most recent MATS cohort I’ve selected for people who seem like they would be happy to just sit around and think for the whole time period without feeling much internal pressure to produce legible outputs. We’ll see how that goes.
Hmm, I was referring here to “who I would want to hire at Lightcone” (and similarly, who I expect other mentors would be interested in hiring for their orgs) where I do think I would want to hire people who are on board with that organizational mission.
At the field level, I think we probably still have some disagreement about how valuable people caring about the AI X-risk case is, but I feel a lot less strongly about it, and think I could end up pretty excited about a MATS-like program that is more oriented around doing ambitious understanding of the nature of intelligence.
As an atypical applicant to MATS (no PhD, no coding/ technical skills, not early career, new to AI), I found it incredibly difficult to find mentors who were looking to hold space for just thinking about intelligence. I’d have loved to apply to a stream that involved just thinking, writing, being challenged and repeating until I’d a thesis worth pursuing. To me, it seemed more like most mentors were looking to test very specific hypothesis, and maybe it’s for all the reasons you’ve stated above. But for someone new and inexperienced, I felt pretty unsure about applying at all.
A few quick comments, on the same theme as but mostly unrelated to the exchange so far:
I’m not very sold on “cares about xrisk” as a key metric for technical researchers. I am more interested in people who want to very deeply understand how intelligence works (whether abstractly or in neural networks in particular). I think the former is sometimes a good proxy for the latter but it’s important not to conflate them. See this post for more.
Having said that, I don’t get much of a sense that many MATS scholars want to deeply understand how intelligence works. When I walked around the poster showcase at the most recent iteration of MATS, a large majority of the projects seemed like they’d prioritized pretty “shallow” investigations. Obviously it’s hard to complete deep scientific work in three months but at least on a quick skim I didn’t see many projects that seemed like they were even heading in that direction. (I’d cite Tom Ringstrom as one example of a MATS scholar who was trying to do deep and rigorous work, though I also think that his core assumptions are wrong.)
As one characterization of an alternative approach: my intership with Owain Evans back in 2017 consisted of me basically sitting around and thinking about AI safety for three months. I had some blog posts as output but nothing particularly legible. I think this helped nudge me towards thinking more deeply about AI safety subsequently (though it’s hard to assign specific credit).
There’s an incentive alignment problem where even if mentors want scholars to spend their time thinking carefully, the scholars’ careers will benefit most from legible projects. In my most recent MATS cohort I’ve selected for people who seem like they would be happy to just sit around and think for the whole time period without feeling much internal pressure to produce legible outputs. We’ll see how that goes.
Hmm, I was referring here to “who I would want to hire at Lightcone” (and similarly, who I expect other mentors would be interested in hiring for their orgs) where I do think I would want to hire people who are on board with that organizational mission.
At the field level, I think we probably still have some disagreement about how valuable people caring about the AI X-risk case is, but I feel a lot less strongly about it, and think I could end up pretty excited about a MATS-like program that is more oriented around doing ambitious understanding of the nature of intelligence.
Sounds like PIBBSS/PrincInt!
As an atypical applicant to MATS (no PhD, no coding/ technical skills, not early career, new to AI), I found it incredibly difficult to find mentors who were looking to hold space for just thinking about intelligence. I’d have loved to apply to a stream that involved just thinking, writing, being challenged and repeating until I’d a thesis worth pursuing. To me, it seemed more like most mentors were looking to test very specific hypothesis, and maybe it’s for all the reasons you’ve stated above. But for someone new and inexperienced, I felt pretty unsure about applying at all.