I think I have basically been trying to be meta-honest since the meta-honesty post came out… but, like, not trying super scrupulous committed about it, just, like, keeping it as the obviously-correct-thing to be aspiring to, and being more intentional about when/why to lie.
I didn’t find that degree of effort super costly. (I think “specifically tracking meta-honesty” basically just didn’t come up as a thing I had to do, because indeed people mostly don’t ask questions about when I’m honest)
(You said there was a lot of mental overhead, and I’m not sure if this was more about being “meta-honest” or just “honest”?)
I do think some benefits accrue, not just to you, but, to the rationalists-and-associates as a whole for taking honesty seriously. I don’t think the rest of the world cares about “meta-honesty” as an intellectual concept, but, it’s a true fact that if you’re the sort of person who takes honesty seriously you need to somehow handle the sorts of problems meta-honesty is designed to handle, so it’s sort of part-and-parcel to accurately gaining a reputation for serious honesty.
There’s some mental overhead to meta-honesty specifically. For example, I’d err away from saying “You’re the best. I mean it.” (though I’ve probably messed up and used that phrasing). The second sentence reads a bit like a claim about the truth-value of the first sentence, but the first sentence is not literally true.
Even if you don’t ca e about silly things like that it still comes up. For example I have a depressed friend who is convinced he’s going to “die alone”. I think his fatalistic confidence in that belief is unwarranted, and so I have a strong urge to reassure him he will not die alone. And then he questions me and asks me if I really mean that. And I have a strong urge to reply “yes”, but what I really mean is “I think you’re being way too fatalistic about this. I don’t know what will actually happen in your life, but if you tried hard I think you could meaningfully improve your odds of not dying alone, and I think for most operationalizations your odds are not even that high.”
Ah, gotcha. I think I hadn’t been tracking this sort of thing (i.e. incidental meta-white-lies) in the first paragraph. I think I happen to not do them much, but will keep an eye out for them.
I think I did track things like the second paragraph, but, I resolved them more on the “regular honesty” rather than “meta honesty level”, i.e. figuring out what I could say that addressed the thing they needed without lying. (although it sounds like you maybe got a harder case than I’ve recently dealt with).
On the object-level-tangent, you’ve maybe figured out your own version of this sort-of-thing now, but, the way I handle the second-case is: If it seems like they need a particular thing, try to give them that particular thing. If it looks like they’re currently an emotional vortex that’s not going to be happy no matter what I say, then I tell them (in an empathetic voice, trying to radiate reassurance):
“Hey man, it currently feels like you’re spiralling/fixating on this in a way that doesn’t actually make sense. I’m not going to give you the specific kind of reassurance you’re asking for here because I don’t think it’ll help. But I think you’re being fatalistic here in a way that doesn’t make sense. I think you’re currently living in a depression hole where you can’t imagine anything good happening, and there will be days where you are less in this hole and making progress will be more possible.” (Meanwhile: “wanna go for a walk, or get help getting an appointment with a psychiatrist booked?” depending on situation and how much effort I actually want to invest)
Yeah, I feel like I know how to handle the object level situation whilst preserving honesty and meta-honesty. But I have to consciously think to do that and I’m worried I will sometimes not be focused and slip up, and slipping up on the meta-honesty front is quite bad.
Some specific things that have come up for me, some of which are about “metahonesty-qua-metahonesty” and some is just… idk, getting more intentional about honesty.
I’ve generally switched to “never lie” as a strong default and noticing white lies and similar more reflectively, and trying to find more honest ways of accomplishing whatever my white-lie goal was.
Most people in my social circle understand and accept glomarization as something you do sometimes.
I am still confused about whether/when to lie to bureaucracies. I do sometimes lie to bureaucracies. I am particularly worried about it when it seems likely other people will get caught up in the lies, but bureaucracies are often designed in a way to disempower me and I don’t feel automatically obligated to play by their rules
Honesty oaths
Sometimes, I think someone is maybe lying to me (usually in a fun prankstery way, sometimes more importantly). Sometimes, when it’s actually pretty important to me to know if it’s a lie, I ask “do you swear that’s true upon your honor as a guy who cares about being able to credibly coordinate about things truthfully sometimes?”
and sometimes they say “yes” and sometimes they say “no, because I have a general policy of not being pressured by that sort of question” and sometimes they say “hmm, I’m not sure whether I should glommarize here.”
sometimes, I instead say “do you swear on your honor as a guy who cares about credibly coordinating but also cares about fun pranks and gets, a few free passes on lying in answer to this sorta question?”
Mostly this has just come up for fun, but I like it as social tech.
“Honest relationships”, vs “Other random kinds of relationships”
Generally, I want to have honest relationships with my close friends. But, there’s a cluster of people (usually but not always non-rationalists, old friends, family, etc) who seem like they just don’t actually want a relationship with rationalist-levels-of-honesty. If I were fully honest with them they’d be annoyed or sad, and it doesn’t seem like this even bothers them. Mostly I still don’t lie to them, I just am not as open and don’t correct all inaccurate assumptions, but I lie sometimes.
Neat.
I think I have basically been trying to be meta-honest since the meta-honesty post came out… but, like, not trying super scrupulous committed about it, just, like, keeping it as the obviously-correct-thing to be aspiring to, and being more intentional about when/why to lie.
I didn’t find that degree of effort super costly. (I think “specifically tracking meta-honesty” basically just didn’t come up as a thing I had to do, because indeed people mostly don’t ask questions about when I’m honest)
(You said there was a lot of mental overhead, and I’m not sure if this was more about being “meta-honest” or just “honest”?)
I do think some benefits accrue, not just to you, but, to the rationalists-and-associates as a whole for taking honesty seriously. I don’t think the rest of the world cares about “meta-honesty” as an intellectual concept, but, it’s a true fact that if you’re the sort of person who takes honesty seriously you need to somehow handle the sorts of problems meta-honesty is designed to handle, so it’s sort of part-and-parcel to accurately gaining a reputation for serious honesty.
There’s some mental overhead to meta-honesty specifically. For example, I’d err away from saying “You’re the best. I mean it.” (though I’ve probably messed up and used that phrasing). The second sentence reads a bit like a claim about the truth-value of the first sentence, but the first sentence is not literally true.
Even if you don’t ca e about silly things like that it still comes up. For example I have a depressed friend who is convinced he’s going to “die alone”. I think his fatalistic confidence in that belief is unwarranted, and so I have a strong urge to reassure him he will not die alone. And then he questions me and asks me if I really mean that. And I have a strong urge to reply “yes”, but what I really mean is “I think you’re being way too fatalistic about this. I don’t know what will actually happen in your life, but if you tried hard I think you could meaningfully improve your odds of not dying alone, and I think for most operationalizations your odds are not even that high.”
Ah, gotcha. I think I hadn’t been tracking this sort of thing (i.e. incidental meta-white-lies) in the first paragraph. I think I happen to not do them much, but will keep an eye out for them.
I think I did track things like the second paragraph, but, I resolved them more on the “regular honesty” rather than “meta honesty level”, i.e. figuring out what I could say that addressed the thing they needed without lying. (although it sounds like you maybe got a harder case than I’ve recently dealt with).
On the object-level-tangent, you’ve maybe figured out your own version of this sort-of-thing now, but, the way I handle the second-case is: If it seems like they need a particular thing, try to give them that particular thing. If it looks like they’re currently an emotional vortex that’s not going to be happy no matter what I say, then I tell them (in an empathetic voice, trying to radiate reassurance):
“Hey man, it currently feels like you’re spiralling/fixating on this in a way that doesn’t actually make sense. I’m not going to give you the specific kind of reassurance you’re asking for here because I don’t think it’ll help. But I think you’re being fatalistic here in a way that doesn’t make sense. I think you’re currently living in a depression hole where you can’t imagine anything good happening, and there will be days where you are less in this hole and making progress will be more possible.” (Meanwhile: “wanna go for a walk, or get help getting an appointment with a psychiatrist booked?” depending on situation and how much effort I actually want to invest)
Yeah, I feel like I know how to handle the object level situation whilst preserving honesty and meta-honesty. But I have to consciously think to do that and I’m worried I will sometimes not be focused and slip up, and slipping up on the meta-honesty front is quite bad.
Some specific things that have come up for me, some of which are about “metahonesty-qua-metahonesty” and some is just… idk, getting more intentional about honesty.
I’ve generally switched to “never lie” as a strong default and noticing white lies and similar more reflectively, and trying to find more honest ways of accomplishing whatever my white-lie goal was.
Most people in my social circle understand and accept glomarization as something you do sometimes.
I am still confused about whether/when to lie to bureaucracies. I do sometimes lie to bureaucracies. I am particularly worried about it when it seems likely other people will get caught up in the lies, but bureaucracies are often designed in a way to disempower me and I don’t feel automatically obligated to play by their rules
Honesty oaths
Sometimes, I think someone is maybe lying to me (usually in a fun prankstery way, sometimes more importantly). Sometimes, when it’s actually pretty important to me to know if it’s a lie, I ask “do you swear that’s true upon your honor as a guy who cares about being able to credibly coordinate about things truthfully sometimes?”
and sometimes they say “yes” and sometimes they say “no, because I have a general policy of not being pressured by that sort of question” and sometimes they say “hmm, I’m not sure whether I should glommarize here.”
sometimes, I instead say “do you swear on your honor as a guy who cares about credibly coordinating but also cares about fun pranks and gets, a few free passes on lying in answer to this sorta question?”
Mostly this has just come up for fun, but I like it as social tech.
“Honest relationships”, vs “Other random kinds of relationships”
Generally, I want to have honest relationships with my close friends. But, there’s a cluster of people (usually but not always non-rationalists, old friends, family, etc) who seem like they just don’t actually want a relationship with rationalist-levels-of-honesty. If I were fully honest with them they’d be annoyed or sad, and it doesn’t seem like this even bothers them. Mostly I still don’t lie to them, I just am not as open and don’t correct all inaccurate assumptions, but I lie sometimes.