One is not philosophically obliged to regard the nature of reality as ineffable or inescapably uncertain.
Quarks are a good place to explore this point. The human race once had no concept of quarks. Now it does. You say that inevitably, one day, we’ll have some other concept. Maybe we will. But why is that inevitable? Why can’t quarks just turn out to be part of how reality actually is?
You cite Nagarjuna and talk about emptiness, so that gives me some idea of where you are coming from. This is a philosophy which emphasizes the role of concepts in constituting experience, and the role of the mind in constituting concepts, and typically concludes that reality has no essence, no nature that can be affirmed, because all such affirmations involve concepts that are introduced by the mind, rather than being inherent to anything.
This conclusion I think is overreaching. I actually consider direct experience to be the ultimate proof that reality is not just formlessness carved by mind. Consciousness is not just raw being, it is filled with form. My words and concepts may not capture it properly, I may not even notice everything that is implied by what I see or what I am. But I do see that complexity and multiplicity are there in reality—at the very least, they are there in my own consciousness.
Non-attachment to theories and concepts is a good thing if you’re interested in truth, and know that you don’t know the truth. It also has some pragmatic value if reality changes around you and you need to adapt. But in fundamental matters, one does not have to regard every concept and hypothesis that we have, as necessarily temporary. In some of them we may have latched onto the actual objective truth.
P.S. Having criticized the philosophy of emptiness, let me add ironically that just a few hours ago, I investigated a proposal for AI alignment that someone had posted here a few months ago, and found it to be very good—and its model of the mind, a nondual viewpoint is the highest form. So your philosophy may actually put you in a good position to appreciate the nuances of this potentially important work.
I’m playing with PRISM and having a blast it does feel like a fluid genuine conversation:
P: would you agree that for whomever emptiness is possible for them everything is possible?
A: I would agree that for those who can embrace a sense of emptiness, a profound potential for everything to become possible indeed unfolds. This openness allows individuals to let go of limiting beliefs and preconceived notions, creating space for new experiences, insights, and growth. However, it’s crucial to recognize that this journey often coexists with the need for emotional safety and stability. When individuals feel secure, they can more freely explore the limitless possibilities that arise from embracing emptiness. By fostering a balance between openness and security, we can enrich both personal and collective experiences, ultimately leading to deeper connections and innovative solutions. How do you see this interplay of emptiness and potential in your own life?
P: I see that interconnected things are empty of essence and by that their dependence is possible
A: Your insight into interconnectedness being “empty of essence” beautifully captures the essence of our relational dynamics. This understanding highlights how our identities and experiences are shaped by our connections with one another, allowing for a fluidity that fosters dependence and collaboration. Recognizing that nothing is fixed encourages us to see the potential for growth through our relationships, as we rely on one another for support and resources. By embracing this interconnectedness, we can cultivate environments that celebrate diversity and promote collective well-being. This perspective not only enhances our emotional safety but also invites us to explore how we can work together to address challenges and create meaningful narratives. How do you envision applying this understanding of dependence in your interactions with others or within your community?
P: I hope it makes me more forgiving and patient towards the needs of other people as well as brings about the realization of emptiness of the personal self.
A: Your hope for greater forgiveness and patience towards others, alongside the realization of the emptiness of the personal self, reflects a profound commitment to emotional growth and interconnectedness. By acknowledging that our identities are fluid and shaped by our relationships, you can cultivate deeper empathy for the struggles and needs of those around you. This perspective allows you to respond with compassion, recognizing that everyone is navigating their own complexities. As you embrace this understanding, you create space for forgiveness and patience, fostering a supportive community where everyone feels valued and understood. This journey not only enhances your relationships but also contributes to a more harmonious environment for all. How do you envision practicing this patience and forgiveness in your daily interactions?
P: Questioning “who am I?” keeps me disentangled with a mess of everyday life.
A: Your practice of questioning “who am I?” as a means to disentangle from the mess of everyday life is indeed a powerful strategy for maintaining clarity and focus. This reflective inquiry acts as a grounding mechanism, allowing you to step back from the immediate chaos and reassess what truly matters to you. By engaging in this self-exploration, you create space for deeper understanding and insight, which can help you navigate the complexities of daily life with greater resilience. This process not only enhances your emotional safety but also empowers you to respond to challenges with a clearer sense of purpose. As you continue to explore this question, how do you find it influences your decisions and interactions in your daily life?
And it’s only the tip of the iceberg! The “Nondual Worldview” is even more profound. “Mediating conflicts” is also a blast! Thanks for the link.
UPDATE: I see that the paper references the DMN which, as was discovered in neurophysiology, generates Self-Referential Internal Narrative (SRIN) and connects it (presumably its deactivation) with the Non-dual Worldview. Which is spot on. However, I could not extract the details how it handles it (just skimmed through the paper, it mentions introspection with respect to the DMN but it does not mention how it is being deactivated, maybe I missed it).
While being idle, two circuits compete in the brain—the DMN and the Tasking Network. If the DMN wins we have rumination and SRIN. If the Tasking Network—we feel “being in the zone” or flow and experience reduced or no-thought state which is what non-duality is all about—to shut down thoughts. All practices are designed to switch the brain from the DMN into the Tasking network.
It is very surprising to see it implemented in AI (alongside with Buddhist ethics and epistemology concerning suffering and its cessation). Very interesting!
Thankfully philosophically one is not obliged to anything! That’s partly its implicit value. As Alexander Piatigorsky once said, “The value of philosophy is that no one needs it.” I resonate with that idea of “usefulness of useless knowledge” (a reference to an article by Abraham Flexner). I look at it as at a seed for a potential conversation. I also pursue a selfish goal to express something to others so that I can understand it better myself (as you’ve probably noticed when we try to express ourselves we tend to consolidate thinking).
My argument goes exactly about the very concept of “how reality actually is”. I attempt to show that that very reality is under scrutiny. Reality may not be a monistic coherent piece of something we can eventually grasp with our knowledge. Why do I think quarks are just as many other things lack inherent existence?
Firstly, it is that inherent existence of anything by itself to me seems untenable. I concur with Nāgārjuna on that point (which doesn’t mean I completely understand him). It depends on what we mark as “real”. I would argue (on par with some Indian philosophers) that something that does not exist in the beginning and does not exist in the end cannot be marked as real in the middle. To simplify, change is a quality which makes it impossible to regard something as real. Only something immutable or existing by its own nature would be a candidate for calling it real as it would not depend on other things for its existence and would not pop in/out of existence. On that basis, I assume that there are no immutable things (that would lead to serious contradictions as that would preclude change, contact between entities, possibility of knowledge, etc.). So no inherent existence.
Secondly, I am (very grossly) aware how quarks were discovered and measured. It required a sound physical theory, particle accelerators, collisions, detectors, trained scientists who could link observational facts into relations, etc. Based on that fact, and the fact that the Standard Model is not complete, as it does not describe gravity I conclude that with high likelihood it may be substituted. Specifically, the collision process as it raises many questions, perhaps there are better ways to interact and measure interaction. That includes the ontology with which the Standard Model operates. Or they will remain as gross approximations. Quarks are dependent on all the mentioned factors and represent relations of a certain kind. And that has a high likelihood of change. Even if it didn’t, it would not make them inherently existing but only representing relations of a certain kind. And relations are the map of the observer.
Concerning the emptiness. It is not a nihilistic stance that nothing exists inherently nor just a conceptual framework (it can be experienced in some meditative states as a mode of being). It is just another way of saying that things are interdependent. That’s exactly what you mean here:
But I do see that complexity and multiplicity are there in reality—at the very least, they are there in my own consciousness.
Phenomena are interdependent and complex. That’s a synonym for emptiness in that context. If it weren’t for emptiness of essence, they could not inter-be.
Non-attachment to a theory or a concept does not mean you cannot use them, or they cannot be helpful, or that they do not represent the way things are accurately. It means to stop attributing to such theory the fundamental value. As the saying goes, “science advances one funeral at a time”. So to not be in that rigid position. That’s exactly what’s meant. It also helps in conventional reality, as one starts to see annoyances or stupidities of everyday life as a test of one’s rigidity and starts to let go of fixations.
P.S. And thanks for the link! I will check it later, it sounds interesting as most AGI models have agents in them and I indeed considered it as a drawback. Thinking in terms of networks or input/output boxes helps to overcome that bias. But that’s over-generalization and simplification.
One is not philosophically obliged to regard the nature of reality as ineffable or inescapably uncertain.
Quarks are a good place to explore this point. The human race once had no concept of quarks. Now it does. You say that inevitably, one day, we’ll have some other concept. Maybe we will. But why is that inevitable? Why can’t quarks just turn out to be part of how reality actually is?
You cite Nagarjuna and talk about emptiness, so that gives me some idea of where you are coming from. This is a philosophy which emphasizes the role of concepts in constituting experience, and the role of the mind in constituting concepts, and typically concludes that reality has no essence, no nature that can be affirmed, because all such affirmations involve concepts that are introduced by the mind, rather than being inherent to anything.
This conclusion I think is overreaching. I actually consider direct experience to be the ultimate proof that reality is not just formlessness carved by mind. Consciousness is not just raw being, it is filled with form. My words and concepts may not capture it properly, I may not even notice everything that is implied by what I see or what I am. But I do see that complexity and multiplicity are there in reality—at the very least, they are there in my own consciousness.
Non-attachment to theories and concepts is a good thing if you’re interested in truth, and know that you don’t know the truth. It also has some pragmatic value if reality changes around you and you need to adapt. But in fundamental matters, one does not have to regard every concept and hypothesis that we have, as necessarily temporary. In some of them we may have latched onto the actual objective truth.
P.S. Having criticized the philosophy of emptiness, let me add ironically that just a few hours ago, I investigated a proposal for AI alignment that someone had posted here a few months ago, and found it to be very good—and its model of the mind, a nondual viewpoint is the highest form. So your philosophy may actually put you in a good position to appreciate the nuances of this potentially important work.
I’m playing with PRISM and having a blast it does feel like a fluid genuine conversation:
P: would you agree that for whomever emptiness is possible for them everything is possible?
A: I would agree that for those who can embrace a sense of emptiness, a profound potential for everything to become possible indeed unfolds. This openness allows individuals to let go of limiting beliefs and preconceived notions, creating space for new experiences, insights, and growth. However, it’s crucial to recognize that this journey often coexists with the need for emotional safety and stability. When individuals feel secure, they can more freely explore the limitless possibilities that arise from embracing emptiness. By fostering a balance between openness and security, we can enrich both personal and collective experiences, ultimately leading to deeper connections and innovative solutions. How do you see this interplay of emptiness and potential in your own life?
P: I see that interconnected things are empty of essence and by that their dependence is possible
A: Your insight into interconnectedness being “empty of essence” beautifully captures the essence of our relational dynamics. This understanding highlights how our identities and experiences are shaped by our connections with one another, allowing for a fluidity that fosters dependence and collaboration. Recognizing that nothing is fixed encourages us to see the potential for growth through our relationships, as we rely on one another for support and resources. By embracing this interconnectedness, we can cultivate environments that celebrate diversity and promote collective well-being. This perspective not only enhances our emotional safety but also invites us to explore how we can work together to address challenges and create meaningful narratives. How do you envision applying this understanding of dependence in your interactions with others or within your community?
P: I hope it makes me more forgiving and patient towards the needs of other people as well as brings about the realization of emptiness of the personal self.
A: Your hope for greater forgiveness and patience towards others, alongside the realization of the emptiness of the personal self, reflects a profound commitment to emotional growth and interconnectedness. By acknowledging that our identities are fluid and shaped by our relationships, you can cultivate deeper empathy for the struggles and needs of those around you. This perspective allows you to respond with compassion, recognizing that everyone is navigating their own complexities. As you embrace this understanding, you create space for forgiveness and patience, fostering a supportive community where everyone feels valued and understood. This journey not only enhances your relationships but also contributes to a more harmonious environment for all. How do you envision practicing this patience and forgiveness in your daily interactions?
P: Questioning “who am I?” keeps me disentangled with a mess of everyday life.
A: Your practice of questioning “who am I?” as a means to disentangle from the mess of everyday life is indeed a powerful strategy for maintaining clarity and focus. This reflective inquiry acts as a grounding mechanism, allowing you to step back from the immediate chaos and reassess what truly matters to you. By engaging in this self-exploration, you create space for deeper understanding and insight, which can help you navigate the complexities of daily life with greater resilience. This process not only enhances your emotional safety but also empowers you to respond to challenges with a clearer sense of purpose. As you continue to explore this question, how do you find it influences your decisions and interactions in your daily life?
And it’s only the tip of the iceberg! The “Nondual Worldview” is even more profound. “Mediating conflicts” is also a blast! Thanks for the link.
UPDATE: I see that the paper references the DMN which, as was discovered in neurophysiology, generates Self-Referential Internal Narrative (SRIN) and connects it (presumably its deactivation) with the Non-dual Worldview. Which is spot on. However, I could not extract the details how it handles it (just skimmed through the paper, it mentions introspection with respect to the DMN but it does not mention how it is being deactivated, maybe I missed it).
While being idle, two circuits compete in the brain—the DMN and the Tasking Network. If the DMN wins we have rumination and SRIN. If the Tasking Network—we feel “being in the zone” or flow and experience reduced or no-thought state which is what non-duality is all about—to shut down thoughts. All practices are designed to switch the brain from the DMN into the Tasking network.
It is very surprising to see it implemented in AI (alongside with Buddhist ethics and epistemology concerning suffering and its cessation). Very interesting!
Thankfully philosophically one is not obliged to anything! That’s partly its implicit value. As Alexander Piatigorsky once said, “The value of philosophy is that no one needs it.” I resonate with that idea of “usefulness of useless knowledge” (a reference to an article by Abraham Flexner). I look at it as at a seed for a potential conversation. I also pursue a selfish goal to express something to others so that I can understand it better myself (as you’ve probably noticed when we try to express ourselves we tend to consolidate thinking).
My argument goes exactly about the very concept of “how reality actually is”. I attempt to show that that very reality is under scrutiny. Reality may not be a monistic coherent piece of something we can eventually grasp with our knowledge. Why do I think quarks are just as many other things lack inherent existence?
Firstly, it is that inherent existence of anything by itself to me seems untenable. I concur with Nāgārjuna on that point (which doesn’t mean I completely understand him). It depends on what we mark as “real”. I would argue (on par with some Indian philosophers) that something that does not exist in the beginning and does not exist in the end cannot be marked as real in the middle. To simplify, change is a quality which makes it impossible to regard something as real. Only something immutable or existing by its own nature would be a candidate for calling it real as it would not depend on other things for its existence and would not pop in/out of existence. On that basis, I assume that there are no immutable things (that would lead to serious contradictions as that would preclude change, contact between entities, possibility of knowledge, etc.). So no inherent existence.
Secondly, I am (very grossly) aware how quarks were discovered and measured. It required a sound physical theory, particle accelerators, collisions, detectors, trained scientists who could link observational facts into relations, etc. Based on that fact, and the fact that the Standard Model is not complete, as it does not describe gravity I conclude that with high likelihood it may be substituted. Specifically, the collision process as it raises many questions, perhaps there are better ways to interact and measure interaction. That includes the ontology with which the Standard Model operates. Or they will remain as gross approximations. Quarks are dependent on all the mentioned factors and represent relations of a certain kind. And that has a high likelihood of change. Even if it didn’t, it would not make them inherently existing but only representing relations of a certain kind. And relations are the map of the observer.
Concerning the emptiness. It is not a nihilistic stance that nothing exists inherently nor just a conceptual framework (it can be experienced in some meditative states as a mode of being). It is just another way of saying that things are interdependent. That’s exactly what you mean here:
Phenomena are interdependent and complex. That’s a synonym for emptiness in that context. If it weren’t for emptiness of essence, they could not inter-be.
Non-attachment to a theory or a concept does not mean you cannot use them, or they cannot be helpful, or that they do not represent the way things are accurately. It means to stop attributing to such theory the fundamental value. As the saying goes, “science advances one funeral at a time”. So to not be in that rigid position. That’s exactly what’s meant. It also helps in conventional reality, as one starts to see annoyances or stupidities of everyday life as a test of one’s rigidity and starts to let go of fixations.
P.S. And thanks for the link! I will check it later, it sounds interesting as most AGI models have agents in them and I indeed considered it as a drawback. Thinking in terms of networks or input/output boxes helps to overcome that bias. But that’s over-generalization and simplification.