Short exercise. Does anyone actually think pirates stand a chance against professionally trained assassins? I thought the only reason people defend pirates is because it’s a way to say both of them (or their identity-memes) are just so damn cool.
What are we talking about here? Ninjas didn’t normally kill in open combat (nor did pirates if they could help it) and pirates didn’t generally fight in set piece battles on land. In order to give a serious answer to such a question, you would first need to specify a combat situation: 17th century-style naval combat (of which the outcome would be largely dependent on the state of Japanese versus Portuguese maritime technology), open field daylight desert island team combat, single combat (with or without firearms and at what distance?), coastline castle siege, covert assassination of captain/quartermaster aboard a ship, etc...
If I’m a trained covert assassin and I find myself in the middle of a 17th century-style naval combat involving Japanese vs. Portuguese marine technology, it seems what I ought to do is attempt to covertly board the enemy vessel and assassinate its captain. If I’m a trained covert assassin and I find myself in the middle of open field daylight desert island team combat against trained shock troops, it seems what I ought to do is run away and come back in about twelve hours and try again.
More generally, part of what a sufficiently trained combatant is taught to do is control the combat situation, rather than take it as a given.
I am talking about ninjas and pirates in any situation which doesn’t involve giving all the ninjas idiot balls. So, for example, the ninjas don’t swim out to sea and start throwing shurikens at pirate ships.
The best pirates could do if they somehow got advance notice that the ninjas were out to get them is to hide and stay away from any land the ninjas have access to (and can maintain reasonable intelligence on). Meanwhile they are almost no threat at all to the ninjas.
Suppose for some reason a stalemate with pirates hiding from the ninjas and restricting themselves from any activities that would give the ninjas a chance to catch them doesn’t count as “ninjas are clearly better”. Even then it would take very little time for the ninjas to gain sea based dominance too. They are a paramilitary organisation with government support. They’ll quickly get better ships, easily get sailing training or just conscript sailors and then go hunt down the pirates.
If ninjas and pirates get into conflict the pirates just lose. Fortunately for pirates they aren’t out to win—they are out to get booty. Pirates prey on the weak or undefended and avoid fighting the powerful—be it ninjas, armies, navies, heavily defended settlements or sith lords. They also make sure they don’t do anything that pushes them across the threshold of being a nuisance to the powerful and a serious threat that needs to be dealt with by elite forces. (Like ninjas.)
Pirates were often privateers, which fit that definition very well.
Furthermore, the overlap between piracy and warfare meant that many pirates served in paramilitary forces before, after, or during their pirate days. For an illustration, note this description of the Battle of New Orleans, including a prominent pirate acting as an irregular military advisor / commander, and many of his compatriots serving even in land-based artillery companies.
Let’s say the pirates have a secret, semi-fortified island base. Ninja objective is to eliminate the threat of pirates to local shipping; pirate objective is to escape with as much of the loot as possible, or failing that, a workable ship and their lives. Ideally the pirates would also like to have a base from which to operate, but such a location is only really useful if it hasn’t already been located by enemy forces.
What are we talking about here? Ninjas didn’t normally kill in open combat (nor did pirates if they could help it) and pirates didn’t generally fight in set piece battles on land. In order to give a serious answer to such a question, you would first need to specify a combat situation: 17th century-style naval combat (of which the outcome would be largely dependent on the state of Japanese versus Portuguese maritime technology), open field daylight desert island team combat, single combat (with or without firearms and at what distance?), coastline castle siege, covert assassination of captain/quartermaster aboard a ship, etc...
Not sure I agree.
If I’m a trained covert assassin and I find myself in the middle of a 17th century-style naval combat involving Japanese vs. Portuguese marine technology, it seems what I ought to do is attempt to covertly board the enemy vessel and assassinate its captain. If I’m a trained covert assassin and I find myself in the middle of open field daylight desert island team combat against trained shock troops, it seems what I ought to do is run away and come back in about twelve hours and try again.
More generally, part of what a sufficiently trained combatant is taught to do is control the combat situation, rather than take it as a given.
I am talking about ninjas and pirates in any situation which doesn’t involve giving all the ninjas idiot balls. So, for example, the ninjas don’t swim out to sea and start throwing shurikens at pirate ships.
The best pirates could do if they somehow got advance notice that the ninjas were out to get them is to hide and stay away from any land the ninjas have access to (and can maintain reasonable intelligence on). Meanwhile they are almost no threat at all to the ninjas.
Suppose for some reason a stalemate with pirates hiding from the ninjas and restricting themselves from any activities that would give the ninjas a chance to catch them doesn’t count as “ninjas are clearly better”. Even then it would take very little time for the ninjas to gain sea based dominance too. They are a paramilitary organisation with government support. They’ll quickly get better ships, easily get sailing training or just conscript sailors and then go hunt down the pirates.
If ninjas and pirates get into conflict the pirates just lose. Fortunately for pirates they aren’t out to win—they are out to get booty. Pirates prey on the weak or undefended and avoid fighting the powerful—be it ninjas, armies, navies, heavily defended settlements or sith lords. They also make sure they don’t do anything that pushes them across the threshold of being a nuisance to the powerful and a serious threat that needs to be dealt with by elite forces. (Like ninjas.)
This also applies to my paradigm of “pirate”.
You might be thinking of privateers.
Yes. There was a very blurry distinction between the two while England wanted to encourage piracy against France.
I don’t think that word means what you think it means.
Pirates were often privateers, which fit that definition very well.
Furthermore, the overlap between piracy and warfare meant that many pirates served in paramilitary forces before, after, or during their pirate days. For an illustration, note this description of the Battle of New Orleans, including a prominent pirate acting as an irregular military advisor / commander, and many of his compatriots serving even in land-based artillery companies.
Let’s say the pirates have a secret, semi-fortified island base. Ninja objective is to eliminate the threat of pirates to local shipping; pirate objective is to escape with as much of the loot as possible, or failing that, a workable ship and their lives. Ideally the pirates would also like to have a base from which to operate, but such a location is only really useful if it hasn’t already been located by enemy forces.