He’s saying that he uses “right” to mean the same thing everyone else does — because the “everyone else” he cares about are human and share human values. Words like “right” (and “inferior”) don’t point to something outside of human experience; they point to something within it. We are having this conversation within human experience, not outside it, so words have their human meanings — which are the only meanings we can actually refer to.
Saying “h-right” is like saying “h-Boston”. The meaning of “Boston” is already defined by humanity; you don’t have to put “h-” in front of it.
It’s just a fact about us that we do not respond to p-rightness in the same way that we respond to h-rightness, and our word “right” refers to the latter. You wouldn’t go out and do things because of those things’ p-rightness, after all. Rightness, not p-rightness, is what motivates us..
It’s part of what we are — just as we (usually) have particular priors. We don’t say “h-evidence” for “the sort of evidence that we find convincing” and contrast this with “y-evidence” which is the sort of evidence that a being who always believes statements written in yellow would find convincing. “h-evidence” is just what “evidence” means.
In general, it’s not strange at all for A and B to both agree completely with C, but disagree with each other. For example, if C says “Pie is yummy!”, B says “Pie is yummy and blueberry is the best!” and A says “Pie is yummy and cherry is the best!”
In this case, I disagree with your assertion that EY does not believe that Pebblesorter morality is inferior to human morality, an assertion fubarobfusco does not make.
I do think Eliezer is saying that Pebblesorter morality is inferior to human morality, specifically insofar as the only thing that “inferior” can refer to in this sense is also “h-inferior” — all the inferiorness that we know how to talk about is inferiorness from a human perspective, because hey, that’s what perspective we use.
He’s saying that he uses “right” to mean the same thing everyone else does — because the “everyone else” he cares about are human and share human values.
Well, again, I suspect he would instead say that he uses “right” the right way, which is unsurprisingly the way all the other people who are right use it. But that bit of nomenclature aside, yes, that’s my understanding of the position.
Oh, I think I get it now.
He’s saying that he uses “right” to mean the same thing everyone else does — because the “everyone else” he cares about are human and share human values. Words like “right” (and “inferior”) don’t point to something outside of human experience; they point to something within it. We are having this conversation within human experience, not outside it, so words have their human meanings — which are the only meanings we can actually refer to.
Saying “h-right” is like saying “h-Boston”. The meaning of “Boston” is already defined by humanity; you don’t have to put “h-” in front of it.
It’s just a fact about us that we do not respond to p-rightness in the same way that we respond to h-rightness, and our word “right” refers to the latter. You wouldn’t go out and do things because of those things’ p-rightness, after all. Rightness, not p-rightness, is what motivates us..
It’s part of what we are — just as we (usually) have particular priors. We don’t say “h-evidence” for “the sort of evidence that we find convincing” and contrast this with “y-evidence” which is the sort of evidence that a being who always believes statements written in yellow would find convincing. “h-evidence” is just what “evidence” means.
I think I agree with you, which is strange because it looks like TheOtherDave also agrees with you, but disagrees with me.
In general, it’s not strange at all for A and B to both agree completely with C, but disagree with each other. For example, if C says “Pie is yummy!”, B says “Pie is yummy and blueberry is the best!” and A says “Pie is yummy and cherry is the best!”
In this case, I disagree with your assertion that EY does not believe that Pebblesorter morality is inferior to human morality, an assertion fubarobfusco does not make.
I do think Eliezer is saying that Pebblesorter morality is inferior to human morality, specifically insofar as the only thing that “inferior” can refer to in this sense is also “h-inferior” — all the inferiorness that we know how to talk about is inferiorness from a human perspective, because hey, that’s what perspective we use.
(nods) I agree. If Oscar_Cunningham agrees as well, then we all agree.
I also agree. Yay!
I think so too. I really like the way you explained this.
Well, again, I suspect he would instead say that he uses “right” the right way, which is unsurprisingly the way all the other people who are right use it. But that bit of nomenclature aside, yes, that’s my understanding of the position.