Any good koan that can’t be immediately decoded feels that way for a person who feels the desire to decode everything. It a basic effect of the teaching tool.
Telling koans is a time tested method for teaching these things and while it might be possible that there’s a better way to teach it, but that doesn’t mean that it’s bad to go with it if you don’t know of a better way.
I agree with what you are saying. I think I addressed. Again using map-territory as an analogy: It can help someone’s understanding of the map-territory distinction to show them places in the territory which don’t match their map. I’m saying there’s also a different thing you can do, which is to draw a map of the map-territory relationship. I read Val as objecting to this approach with “you are still looking at your phone”, which doesn’t seem like a right objection to me. If I ask “Is Kenshō the map-territory distinction?” It seems like the answer is “no, you can understand that without Kenshō; I can see why you thought what I said sounded like map-territory, and it isn’t irrelevant.… but for one thing, I’m talking about an aspect of moment-to-moment experience rather than an intellectual distinction...” etc etc
I think learning the map-territory relationship is about learning something new. Kenshō is in a fundamental sense not about learning something new.
When it comes to the person who looks at the phone and the person unlearns to focus on their phone they begin to see other things. The act of unlearning to look at the phone doesn’t add something new and is qualitatively different than learning a concept like the map-territory distinction.
I agree that the map-territory example is disanalogous with the phone example, since there aren’t a lot of people who respond to the map-territory distinction with “what would that even mean??? are you OK???”. I think maybe I understand what you mean about “not adding something new”—you’re saying it is more like you could have looked up from your phone all along, and you once did, but you’ve forgotten? But I also take it you mean to be pointing out something I’m missing. If so, I’m still not seeing it.
Are you saying there’s something fundamentally wrong with asking for a diagram of how the eyes point at the phone normally but can point away from it? The model I get from Val’s post (and from reading comment threads here!!) is that this will mostly get a response like “I don’t see where this gaze app is” (or worse). However, if someone is engaging with the question sincerely, it seems possible for it to be useful. With respect to enlightenment, this is like the method of direct instruction rather than meditation. (I don’t remember the name of the school of thought I’m referring to, but it is discussed in Sam Harris’ Waking Up.)
Granted, even that school has traditions against trying to explain directly to a general audience I think? So maybe there is a general case to be made aggainst the attempt.
Any good koan that can’t be immediately decoded feels that way for a person who feels the desire to decode everything. It a basic effect of the teaching tool.
Telling koans is a time tested method for teaching these things and while it might be possible that there’s a better way to teach it, but that doesn’t mean that it’s bad to go with it if you don’t know of a better way.
I agree with what you are saying. I think I addressed. Again using map-territory as an analogy: It can help someone’s understanding of the map-territory distinction to show them places in the territory which don’t match their map. I’m saying there’s also a different thing you can do, which is to draw a map of the map-territory relationship. I read Val as objecting to this approach with “you are still looking at your phone”, which doesn’t seem like a right objection to me. If I ask “Is Kenshō the map-territory distinction?” It seems like the answer is “no, you can understand that without Kenshō; I can see why you thought what I said sounded like map-territory, and it isn’t irrelevant.… but for one thing, I’m talking about an aspect of moment-to-moment experience rather than an intellectual distinction...” etc etc
I think learning the map-territory relationship is about learning something new. Kenshō is in a fundamental sense not about learning something new.
When it comes to the person who looks at the phone and the person unlearns to focus on their phone they begin to see other things. The act of unlearning to look at the phone doesn’t add something new and is qualitatively different than learning a concept like the map-territory distinction.
I agree that the map-territory example is disanalogous with the phone example, since there aren’t a lot of people who respond to the map-territory distinction with “what would that even mean??? are you OK???”. I think maybe I understand what you mean about “not adding something new”—you’re saying it is more like you could have looked up from your phone all along, and you once did, but you’ve forgotten? But I also take it you mean to be pointing out something I’m missing. If so, I’m still not seeing it.
Are you saying there’s something fundamentally wrong with asking for a diagram of how the eyes point at the phone normally but can point away from it? The model I get from Val’s post (and from reading comment threads here!!) is that this will mostly get a response like “I don’t see where this gaze app is” (or worse). However, if someone is engaging with the question sincerely, it seems possible for it to be useful. With respect to enlightenment, this is like the method of direct instruction rather than meditation. (I don’t remember the name of the school of thought I’m referring to, but it is discussed in Sam Harris’ Waking Up.)
Granted, even that school has traditions against trying to explain directly to a general audience I think? So maybe there is a general case to be made aggainst the attempt.