I can’t speak to your own mental processes, but I recently had a conversation with a professor about this. We both agreed that the phrase “agreeing to disagree” was the most condescending notion we had ever heard. That any person with a legitimate disagreement who actually respects and values the other person should want to hear their argument and be open to criticism.
I think that LW may be the sort of environment where you are exposed to people who take this seriously. Where we value Bringing about the crisis of faith. The command to not criticize goes against maybe half of the Rationalist Virtues. Being in an environment where that is encouraged and not dismissed would then make the opposite seem intolerable.
It seems like there are times when the optimal behavior pattern for yourself is to disregard the need for argument and evidence for some practical purpose, but it is a consolation. It is giving something up. And that choice should be painful. I don’t think I should want to be good at agreeing not to criticize. I think it should be a fight. If it is easy, then it is easy to compromise when you shouldn’t.
I pretty much agree with your premise, but end up at a different conclusion. Yes, being willing to argue a point of disagreement is an expression of respect and value, as you say. If I’m unwilling to do so when Sam expected that I’d be willing, that’s evidence that I respect and value Sam less than Sam thought. (Not compelling evidence, but evidence.)
That said: I’m under no obligation (moral, rational, or otherwise) to respect or value Sam in this way. “If arguing this topic with Sam is not worth my time, then I desire to know that arguing this topic with Sam is not worth my time, yadda yadda.”
Sure, I agree with you that erring on the side of having the argument in uncertain boundary cases is probably a good idea, for the reasons you describe. But if the expected value of having the argument is negative with reasonable confidence, I endorse not having the argument.
Now, whether I use the phrase “agreeing to disagree” or “let’s talk about this later” or “oh, hey, look at the time!” etc. is a whole different question. Different phrases work for different people.
Personally, my preferred way of ending face-to-face arguments I don’t want to engage in further is either to start saying “OK” a lot, or to maneuver the argument to a place where I can say “Sure, I agree that if X is true, then I’m wrong and you’re right. I don’t think X is true, but that’s an empirical question; it’s probably more efficient for us to go off and actually do the research rather than keep talking about it hypothetically.”
That said: I’m under no obligation (moral, rational, or otherwise) to respect or value Sam in this way.
I actually agree with you on this. There are times when I assign a high probability on an argument being fruitless and so don’t engage in the argument. My point was not that one must always argue, only that when one chooses not to argue, it is, as you say, evidence that they respect and value the person less. Even then, I would say that the decision not to argue should have some small amount of pain to it: if nothing else, sadness at the realization that the other person isn’t worth your time. (I believe this will help with boundary cases where we are in agreement.)
To that end, it is notable that Swimmer is not the one who chose to not argue. Charlie chose that. Which is evidence that Charlie does not value criticism and is evidence for his lack of respect for the position that he is wrong. And that realization should cause one to gnash one’s teeth a little if one is put into a position where Charlie is allowed to say his piece and Swimmer is not.
If I find myself in a “no criticism” zone with a Charlie, I generally endorse covert criticism if I can pull it off, ignoring the no-criticism rule if the consequences are minor enough, or leaving the room altogether.
All of this sadness and pain and teeth-gnashing is to my mind irrelevant, though. If I think the conversation is pointless, I disengage from the conversation. I often do feel bad about it, but I don’t endorse feeling bad about it.
It may also be possible to draw a line around what is or isn’t appropriate within the no-criticism zone. If it’s meant to be a safe space for sharing feelings and experiences or whatnot, drawing in metaphysics (silly or not) is strange. You could possibly discuss it with him in private.
IAWYC. Agreeing to permanently shutting up about a topic is basically admitting one of you can’t talk about it without their brain going funny, which isn’t flattering. Conditionals like “not now” and “only arguments I haven’t heard before” are easier to swallow.
I can’t speak to your own mental processes, but I recently had a conversation with a professor about this. We both agreed that the phrase “agreeing to disagree” was the most condescending notion we had ever heard. That any person with a legitimate disagreement who actually respects and values the other person should want to hear their argument and be open to criticism.
I think that LW may be the sort of environment where you are exposed to people who take this seriously. Where we value Bringing about the crisis of faith. The command to not criticize goes against maybe half of the Rationalist Virtues. Being in an environment where that is encouraged and not dismissed would then make the opposite seem intolerable.
It seems like there are times when the optimal behavior pattern for yourself is to disregard the need for argument and evidence for some practical purpose, but it is a consolation. It is giving something up. And that choice should be painful. I don’t think I should want to be good at agreeing not to criticize. I think it should be a fight. If it is easy, then it is easy to compromise when you shouldn’t.
I pretty much agree with your premise, but end up at a different conclusion. Yes, being willing to argue a point of disagreement is an expression of respect and value, as you say. If I’m unwilling to do so when Sam expected that I’d be willing, that’s evidence that I respect and value Sam less than Sam thought. (Not compelling evidence, but evidence.)
That said: I’m under no obligation (moral, rational, or otherwise) to respect or value Sam in this way. “If arguing this topic with Sam is not worth my time, then I desire to know that arguing this topic with Sam is not worth my time, yadda yadda.”
Sure, I agree with you that erring on the side of having the argument in uncertain boundary cases is probably a good idea, for the reasons you describe. But if the expected value of having the argument is negative with reasonable confidence, I endorse not having the argument.
Now, whether I use the phrase “agreeing to disagree” or “let’s talk about this later” or “oh, hey, look at the time!” etc. is a whole different question. Different phrases work for different people.
Personally, my preferred way of ending face-to-face arguments I don’t want to engage in further is either to start saying “OK” a lot, or to maneuver the argument to a place where I can say “Sure, I agree that if X is true, then I’m wrong and you’re right. I don’t think X is true, but that’s an empirical question; it’s probably more efficient for us to go off and actually do the research rather than keep talking about it hypothetically.”
I actually agree with you on this. There are times when I assign a high probability on an argument being fruitless and so don’t engage in the argument. My point was not that one must always argue, only that when one chooses not to argue, it is, as you say, evidence that they respect and value the person less. Even then, I would say that the decision not to argue should have some small amount of pain to it: if nothing else, sadness at the realization that the other person isn’t worth your time. (I believe this will help with boundary cases where we are in agreement.)
To that end, it is notable that Swimmer is not the one who chose to not argue. Charlie chose that. Which is evidence that Charlie does not value criticism and is evidence for his lack of respect for the position that he is wrong. And that realization should cause one to gnash one’s teeth a little if one is put into a position where Charlie is allowed to say his piece and Swimmer is not.
Oh, Charlie’s a twit. No argument.
If I find myself in a “no criticism” zone with a Charlie, I generally endorse covert criticism if I can pull it off, ignoring the no-criticism rule if the consequences are minor enough, or leaving the room altogether.
All of this sadness and pain and teeth-gnashing is to my mind irrelevant, though. If I think the conversation is pointless, I disengage from the conversation. I often do feel bad about it, but I don’t endorse feeling bad about it.
It may also be possible to draw a line around what is or isn’t appropriate within the no-criticism zone. If it’s meant to be a safe space for sharing feelings and experiences or whatnot, drawing in metaphysics (silly or not) is strange. You could possibly discuss it with him in private.
IAWYC. Agreeing to permanently shutting up about a topic is basically admitting one of you can’t talk about it without their brain going funny, which isn’t flattering. Conditionals like “not now” and “only arguments I haven’t heard before” are easier to swallow.