Tell culture seems pretty close to ask culture. I think guess culture is superior to both of them, even though guessing can go too far sometimes, obviously. (I should tell (!) you though that I am a guesser by inclination/personality so I might be doing motivated cognition).
In my view, the defences of both ask and tell culture are based on a defect picture of human cognition. You more or less always imply things by asking them or telling them things. The reason for this is that there are so many things you could ask and so many things you could tell so that by asking or telling someone something you are thereby implying that this is a reasonable thing to tell/ask. In many cases, it is not. Tellers/askers seem to think that we can somehow magically do away with those implications. The situations is analogous to those who think that we can define our words any way we like. As Yudkowsky pointed out in some post, in defining a word in a certain way, we are thereby implying that the definiens is important. These ideas are both old-style rationalist ideas. We ought to know by now that our minds don’t function in that way but that we’re always looking for implications from all kinds of actions.
My guess is that while many people would like to be able to ask others whatever they like or tell other whatever they like, they don’t like when others do the same to them. But that’s just a hunch.
It would seem to me that the guess vs ask distinction is pretty close to the previously discussed wait vs interrupt culture. In a wait culture people typically have to guess whether others think they’ve spoken for too long. Interrupters on the other hand tend to be more direct askers.
One reason to be suspicious of interrupt/ask cultures is that (I’m speculating here) countries with these cultures seem to be doing worse in other areas. Eg in Europe Northerners have a wait/guess culture and are doing better on all sorts of metrics than pushier Eastern and Southern Europeans. I think the common cause for this is that there is more of mutual trust and respect in Northern Europe, something that leads to more guessing/waiting but also to less corruption and all sorts of other positive effects.
I realize this last argument is not a knock-down argument for guess culture but prima facie it seems to me to have some force.
I think the common cause for this is that there is more of mutual trust and respect in Northern Europe, something that leads to more guessing/waiting
Huh. I would have put these associations the other way around, in that “guess” is what you do when dealing with people whose reactions you can’t anticipate, who have emotional issues with saying no, or who have the power to harm you if they do get offended. Whereas “ask” is used in situations where you can trust the other people to police their own boundaries, and who also trust you not to take offense even if they do decline.
At least “guess = low trust, ask/tell = high trust” is the pattern that I generally follow when dealing with people: strangers mostly get the “guess” treatment, friends may be “upgraded” to “ask” if it seems sufficiently certain that they won’t mind it.
Richard Nisbett and Dov Cohen argued in a classic study that (US) Southern politeness is a reaction to high levels of aggression:
“(The authors also theorize that Southern politeness could be a response to Southern aggression—if Southerners are more likely to take offense than other regional cultures, it follows they would be less likely to give offense, for safety’s sake.)”
That seems to be very much in line with your line of thinking. According to this line of reasoning, “honour” cultures in which people are likely to take offence easily, should generally be more polite.
They made two kinds of experiments that seems to support this line of thinking. In the first, they compared how Southern and Northern young males reacted if you bumped in to them in a conspicuous fashio. Unsurprisingly, the Southerners got more angry. In the second experiment, the experimenters’ collaborators nearly bumped into Southern and Northern young males—in which case the Southerners would be more likely to go out of way to avoid bumping. This makes sense—you should be more careful to avoid bumping into people in a culture where people are more likely to be upset, one would think.
(I can’t find these experiments now though, but it is in line with the quote above.)
So the question is a bit complicated. At the same time, it was interesting to read this very useful comment in the wait vs interrupt comment thread, on French (interrupt) vs American (wait) culture:
“Americans often expressed surprise in my presence at the fact that French people, “who claim to be very big on manners,” are themselves so “rude”:”
What the Americans were thinking of was that the French were not good at listening and frequently interrupted the speaker. At the same time, my guess is that French culture is generally more aggressive—it is more of an “honour” culture—than the US is. In any case, I know for a fact that French culture is more aggressive than my own, Swedish, culture, and Swedes are likely to make similar comments as Americans to this kind of behaviour.
So it seems to me that the whole issue of politeness is quite complicated—there are several different aspects of politeness. I’m thinking many traditional “honour” cultures focus heavily on adherence to some polite “rituals”—titles, never bump into anyone, always pay the bill at restaurants, etc; really salient things—whereas more modern cultures don’t focus on that. Swedes don’t use titles at all, for instance. On the other hand, Swedish traffic, conversational style, etc, are very polite. Perhaps it reflects the fact that Protestantism (Sweden is a Protestant country, as is the US to a large extent) focuses less on rituals than most other religions (e.g. Catholicism). (I realize that this might sound a bit prejudiced; sorry about that.)
I also think there might be several different reasons for why you could end up a guesser or asker. One reason might why you end up as a guesser is that you know that people around you are very easily offended. In this case, guessing is driven by fear. But it might also be that you are a guesser because you’re considerate—you don’t want to hurt other people, and you know that if you’re not trying to put yourself in the other person’s shoes and imagine what they’re thinking, there is a risk that might happen when you start asking them things.
Conversely, you might end up an asker because you’re just unusuall candid. But there is also another kind of asker—the pushy domineering types. Their questions aren’t really questions but a kind of semi-orders. Now my guess is that the latter kind of askers are much more common than people in this thread seem to think. Also, because they’re so common, people are likely to interpret the first kind of askers as being domineering, even though that wasn’t their intention. This is a fact, and something that people who wish our culture to be more candid and open will have to take into account. They cannot blame the interpreter if they’re interpreted in this way, since that’s the normal interpretation of asky behaviour in our culture. Perhaps the “tell” proposal is an attempt to deal with this fact, but I’m not sure I think it’s very succesful.
In any case, it would be interesting to hear or read more empirical stuff on this question. The Pinker video and the quote on French vs American conversational styles were really good. I really think this is the way to go since otherwise there is a risk that we just end up trading anecdotes and prejucided images of ask/guess culture with each other.
Good point. So do we actually have anything resembling actual data about the Askiness/Guessiness of various culture that is unlikely to be the result of mere individual variation? Then we could compare it to measures of trust as they are used in the literature on cooperation in the ultimatum game and such.
Linguistic politeness is a whole sub-field of pragmatics (and sociolinguistics). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politeness_theory gives a fairly good overview of one approach to it. There is lots of stuff out there on it in linguistics.
Interesting! I wonder what it tells us that both Finnish and Swedish have been losing the construct of using the plural you (Finnish “Te”, Swedish “Ni”) as a formal/respectful form of the singular you. A consequence of both countries becoming higher-trust, or something else?
The obvious next step is the formation of a traditionalist chivalric order whose purpose is to preserve the older form of the language in which “Ni” (for the Swedes) is still used as a mark of respect.
I have read a different origin story for the Knights Who Say “Ni!” than the one in Wikipedia. Apparently, one of the Python team came across an old textbook for learning Swedish in a hotel he was staying at, which described the use of the plural “ni” as a polite singular, similarly to the practice of several other European languages.
But Swedish added an extra, strange twist. You could never actually use “ni”, because if you were speaking to someone to whom “ni” would be polite, it would not be polite enough. The proper way to address them would be in the third person, as in “would the vicar care for another cup of tea?” And an old woman of whom you knew nothing might be respectfully addressed as “mør” (“mother”).
Things have come to a pretty pass when knights can roam the countryside saying “ni!” to defenceless old women.
Perhaps one of the Swedes here can say whether this is true?
Hehe. :) I never heard about it. Here is something I found when googling:
“The Knights who say Ni are rumoured to be connected to the mock subtitles in the opening credits which advertise Sweden. In the Swedish language, “Ni” is second person plural (the equivalence of the English plural “you”) and used to be the proper form for adressing people outisde your circle of family and friends. This was however abandoned during the late 1960-ies/early 1970-ies in the so-called “du-reform” (“du” being the second person singular form). According to the rumor, the joke with the knights saying “Ni” and people’s negative reaction to it is a mockery of how the “ni” form was rejected by almost all Swedes, and thus no longer acceptable. Over the years the Pythons have gone back and forth between denying that the rumour is true, and confirming that it is indeed true.”
Egalitarianism, I’d say (which probably is correlated with trust). In Sweden the switch from the plural (“ni”) to the singular (“du”) form of you was done quite deliberately, as described in this article:
“The beginning of the du-reformen is associated with Bror Rexed, the then head of the National Board of Health and Welfare (Socialstyrelsen), who in his welcome speech to the staff in 1967 announced that he would address everyone as du, increasing the effects of the reform and bringing it to a more frequent use. The actual reform had started earlier, including the amended language in the major newspaper Dagens Nyheter. It was seen as a reform in a democratic and egalitarian direction.
First, authorities and influential circles tried rehabilitating the Ni in a so-called ni-reform, but most people could not bring themselves to feel civil using that. Then, almost overnight and dubbed the “du reform”, the system broke down and du (noted as informal above) became the accepted way of addressing any one person except royalty.”
At least “guess = low trust, ask/tell = high trust” is the pattern that I generally follow when dealing with people: strangers mostly get the “guess” treatment, friends may be “upgraded” to “ask” if it seems sufficiently certain that they won’t mind it.
This pattern seems a little off, I wonder if you intended to convey the implicit caveat that you touched on in the preceding paragraph or if your actual pattern is a bit different to what your analysis would suggest. Strangers who for whatever reason you need to avoid offending (anticipate future interactions or believe they could harm you now) need the guessing. Strangers like, say, salespeople or various forms of gatekeepers like doctors are far better treated with Ask (especially if a Guess gambit isn’t giving desired results). Or do you give dispensing-NPCs “guess” treatment too?
Right, my comment was mostly referring to people in the “anticipate future interactions or believe they could harm you now” category. Interactions with “dispensing-NPCs” went into such a different mental category in my head that the need to explicitly exclude them didn’t occur to me.
My guess is that while many people would like to be able to ask others whatever they like or tell other whatever they like, they don’t like when others do the same to them. But that’s just a hunch.
I have frequently noticed that when geeks advocate untrammelled honesty in communication, they mean sending it; the same geeks reliably hit the roof when they receive it.
There is a Seinfeld episode that sort of comments on this—George tells a woman “the truth” (on her request), but he isn’t too pleased when Elaine does the same (on his request):
[First paragraph removed because I didn’t read the parent properly...]
I suppose guess culture would be very nice if it really worked smoothly, but on an individual level, I’ve only seen it fail and cause a lot of pain to most people involved except the most callous individuals.
My instinct is to agree with this. I spent decades learning the intricacies of North-European politeness and I think I’ve finally more or less got it. Now that I’ve learned it, I might be motivated to think that there is some actual point to all this dancing around!
I like Stefan’s idea of connecting guess/ask with wait/interrupt. We might also want to bring the guilt/shame axis into this.
It sounds like ask/interrupt/shame should make for a more honest and efficient society. The guess/wait/guilt stuff sounds pretty frakked up when it is described. But in practice it seems to be correlated with the best places to live in. Maybe this is one of those Chesterton’s fence things:
If you don’t see the use of it, I certainly won’t let you clear it away. Go away and think. Then, when you can come back and tell me that you do see the use of it, I may allow you to destroy it.
Guessing is costly, and occurs more in cultures which are prosperous rather than desperate. There’s more than one way that sort of causal relationship can go.
Tell culture seems pretty close to ask culture. I think guess culture is superior to both of them, even though guessing can go too far sometimes, obviously. (I should tell (!) you though that I am a guesser by inclination/personality so I might be doing motivated cognition).
In my view, the defences of both ask and tell culture are based on a defect picture of human cognition. You more or less always imply things by asking them or telling them things. The reason for this is that there are so many things you could ask and so many things you could tell so that by asking or telling someone something you are thereby implying that this is a reasonable thing to tell/ask. In many cases, it is not. Tellers/askers seem to think that we can somehow magically do away with those implications. The situations is analogous to those who think that we can define our words any way we like. As Yudkowsky pointed out in some post, in defining a word in a certain way, we are thereby implying that the definiens is important. These ideas are both old-style rationalist ideas. We ought to know by now that our minds don’t function in that way but that we’re always looking for implications from all kinds of actions.
My guess is that while many people would like to be able to ask others whatever they like or tell other whatever they like, they don’t like when others do the same to them. But that’s just a hunch.
It would seem to me that the guess vs ask distinction is pretty close to the previously discussed wait vs interrupt culture. In a wait culture people typically have to guess whether others think they’ve spoken for too long. Interrupters on the other hand tend to be more direct askers.
One reason to be suspicious of interrupt/ask cultures is that (I’m speculating here) countries with these cultures seem to be doing worse in other areas. Eg in Europe Northerners have a wait/guess culture and are doing better on all sorts of metrics than pushier Eastern and Southern Europeans. I think the common cause for this is that there is more of mutual trust and respect in Northern Europe, something that leads to more guessing/waiting but also to less corruption and all sorts of other positive effects.
I realize this last argument is not a knock-down argument for guess culture but prima facie it seems to me to have some force.
Huh. I would have put these associations the other way around, in that “guess” is what you do when dealing with people whose reactions you can’t anticipate, who have emotional issues with saying no, or who have the power to harm you if they do get offended. Whereas “ask” is used in situations where you can trust the other people to police their own boundaries, and who also trust you not to take offense even if they do decline.
At least “guess = low trust, ask/tell = high trust” is the pattern that I generally follow when dealing with people: strangers mostly get the “guess” treatment, friends may be “upgraded” to “ask” if it seems sufficiently certain that they won’t mind it.
Richard Nisbett and Dov Cohen argued in a classic study that (US) Southern politeness is a reaction to high levels of aggression:
“(The authors also theorize that Southern politeness could be a response to Southern aggression—if Southerners are more likely to take offense than other regional cultures, it follows they would be less likely to give offense, for safety’s sake.)”
http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/The-312/July-2012/American-Violence-and-Southern-Culture/
That seems to be very much in line with your line of thinking. According to this line of reasoning, “honour” cultures in which people are likely to take offence easily, should generally be more polite.
They made two kinds of experiments that seems to support this line of thinking. In the first, they compared how Southern and Northern young males reacted if you bumped in to them in a conspicuous fashio. Unsurprisingly, the Southerners got more angry. In the second experiment, the experimenters’ collaborators nearly bumped into Southern and Northern young males—in which case the Southerners would be more likely to go out of way to avoid bumping. This makes sense—you should be more careful to avoid bumping into people in a culture where people are more likely to be upset, one would think.
(I can’t find these experiments now though, but it is in line with the quote above.)
So the question is a bit complicated. At the same time, it was interesting to read this very useful comment in the wait vs interrupt comment thread, on French (interrupt) vs American (wait) culture:
“Americans often expressed surprise in my presence at the fact that French people, “who claim to be very big on manners,” are themselves so “rude”:”
http://lesswrong.com/lw/j5n/wait_vs_interrupt_culture/a3c2
What the Americans were thinking of was that the French were not good at listening and frequently interrupted the speaker. At the same time, my guess is that French culture is generally more aggressive—it is more of an “honour” culture—than the US is. In any case, I know for a fact that French culture is more aggressive than my own, Swedish, culture, and Swedes are likely to make similar comments as Americans to this kind of behaviour.
So it seems to me that the whole issue of politeness is quite complicated—there are several different aspects of politeness. I’m thinking many traditional “honour” cultures focus heavily on adherence to some polite “rituals”—titles, never bump into anyone, always pay the bill at restaurants, etc; really salient things—whereas more modern cultures don’t focus on that. Swedes don’t use titles at all, for instance. On the other hand, Swedish traffic, conversational style, etc, are very polite. Perhaps it reflects the fact that Protestantism (Sweden is a Protestant country, as is the US to a large extent) focuses less on rituals than most other religions (e.g. Catholicism). (I realize that this might sound a bit prejudiced; sorry about that.)
I also think there might be several different reasons for why you could end up a guesser or asker. One reason might why you end up as a guesser is that you know that people around you are very easily offended. In this case, guessing is driven by fear. But it might also be that you are a guesser because you’re considerate—you don’t want to hurt other people, and you know that if you’re not trying to put yourself in the other person’s shoes and imagine what they’re thinking, there is a risk that might happen when you start asking them things.
Conversely, you might end up an asker because you’re just unusuall candid. But there is also another kind of asker—the pushy domineering types. Their questions aren’t really questions but a kind of semi-orders. Now my guess is that the latter kind of askers are much more common than people in this thread seem to think. Also, because they’re so common, people are likely to interpret the first kind of askers as being domineering, even though that wasn’t their intention. This is a fact, and something that people who wish our culture to be more candid and open will have to take into account. They cannot blame the interpreter if they’re interpreted in this way, since that’s the normal interpretation of asky behaviour in our culture. Perhaps the “tell” proposal is an attempt to deal with this fact, but I’m not sure I think it’s very succesful.
In any case, it would be interesting to hear or read more empirical stuff on this question. The Pinker video and the quote on French vs American conversational styles were really good. I really think this is the way to go since otherwise there is a risk that we just end up trading anecdotes and prejucided images of ask/guess culture with each other.
Good point. So do we actually have anything resembling actual data about the Askiness/Guessiness of various culture that is unlikely to be the result of mere individual variation? Then we could compare it to measures of trust as they are used in the literature on cooperation in the ultimatum game and such.
Linguistic politeness is a whole sub-field of pragmatics (and sociolinguistics). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politeness_theory gives a fairly good overview of one approach to it. There is lots of stuff out there on it in linguistics.
Interesting! I wonder what it tells us that both Finnish and Swedish have been losing the construct of using the plural you (Finnish “Te”, Swedish “Ni”) as a formal/respectful form of the singular you. A consequence of both countries becoming higher-trust, or something else?
The obvious next step is the formation of a traditionalist chivalric order whose purpose is to preserve the older form of the language in which “Ni” (for the Swedes) is still used as a mark of respect.
They would of course be known as the Knights who say Ni.
I have read a different origin story for the Knights Who Say “Ni!” than the one in Wikipedia. Apparently, one of the Python team came across an old textbook for learning Swedish in a hotel he was staying at, which described the use of the plural “ni” as a polite singular, similarly to the practice of several other European languages.
But Swedish added an extra, strange twist. You could never actually use “ni”, because if you were speaking to someone to whom “ni” would be polite, it would not be polite enough. The proper way to address them would be in the third person, as in “would the vicar care for another cup of tea?” And an old woman of whom you knew nothing might be respectfully addressed as “mør” (“mother”).
Things have come to a pretty pass when knights can roam the countryside saying “ni!” to defenceless old women.
Perhaps one of the Swedes here can say whether this is true?
Hehe. :) I never heard about it. Here is something I found when googling:
“The Knights who say Ni are rumoured to be connected to the mock subtitles in the opening credits which advertise Sweden. In the Swedish language, “Ni” is second person plural (the equivalence of the English plural “you”) and used to be the proper form for adressing people outisde your circle of family and friends. This was however abandoned during the late 1960-ies/early 1970-ies in the so-called “du-reform” (“du” being the second person singular form). According to the rumor, the joke with the knights saying “Ni” and people’s negative reaction to it is a mockery of how the “ni” form was rejected by almost all Swedes, and thus no longer acceptable. Over the years the Pythons have gone back and forth between denying that the rumour is true, and confirming that it is indeed true.”
http://www.moviemistakes.com/film846/corrections
Here is another source.
http://blog.gashead.me/why-did-the-knights-who-say-ni-say-ni/
Egalitarianism, I’d say (which probably is correlated with trust). In Sweden the switch from the plural (“ni”) to the singular (“du”) form of you was done quite deliberately, as described in this article:
“The beginning of the du-reformen is associated with Bror Rexed, the then head of the National Board of Health and Welfare (Socialstyrelsen), who in his welcome speech to the staff in 1967 announced that he would address everyone as du, increasing the effects of the reform and bringing it to a more frequent use. The actual reform had started earlier, including the amended language in the major newspaper Dagens Nyheter. It was seen as a reform in a democratic and egalitarian direction.
First, authorities and influential circles tried rehabilitating the Ni in a so-called ni-reform, but most people could not bring themselves to feel civil using that. Then, almost overnight and dubbed the “du reform”, the system broke down and du (noted as informal above) became the accepted way of addressing any one person except royalty.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Du-reformen
This pattern seems a little off, I wonder if you intended to convey the implicit caveat that you touched on in the preceding paragraph or if your actual pattern is a bit different to what your analysis would suggest. Strangers who for whatever reason you need to avoid offending (anticipate future interactions or believe they could harm you now) need the guessing. Strangers like, say, salespeople or various forms of gatekeepers like doctors are far better treated with Ask (especially if a Guess gambit isn’t giving desired results). Or do you give dispensing-NPCs “guess” treatment too?
Right, my comment was mostly referring to people in the “anticipate future interactions or believe they could harm you now” category. Interactions with “dispensing-NPCs” went into such a different mental category in my head that the need to explicitly exclude them didn’t occur to me.
I have frequently noticed that when geeks advocate untrammelled honesty in communication, they mean sending it; the same geeks reliably hit the roof when they receive it.
Relevant post: Defecting by Accident—A Flaw Common to Analytical People
There is a Seinfeld episode that sort of comments on this—George tells a woman “the truth” (on her request), but he isn’t too pleased when Elaine does the same (on his request):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXliXJSDPvg
[First paragraph removed because I didn’t read the parent properly...]
I suppose guess culture would be very nice if it really worked smoothly, but on an individual level, I’ve only seen it fail and cause a lot of pain to most people involved except the most callous individuals.
My instinct is to agree with this. I spent decades learning the intricacies of North-European politeness and I think I’ve finally more or less got it. Now that I’ve learned it, I might be motivated to think that there is some actual point to all this dancing around!
I like Stefan’s idea of connecting guess/ask with wait/interrupt. We might also want to bring the guilt/shame axis into this.
It sounds like ask/interrupt/shame should make for a more honest and efficient society. The guess/wait/guilt stuff sounds pretty frakked up when it is described. But in practice it seems to be correlated with the best places to live in. Maybe this is one of those Chesterton’s fence things:
Or for a more recent version, xkcd on drama.
Guessing is costly, and occurs more in cultures which are prosperous rather than desperate. There’s more than one way that sort of causal relationship can go.
+1 for the hugeness-of-the-hypothesis/question/word-space argument.