I like this post. You’re coming from religion, you’re seeking truth, you don’t want to toss out the religion completely. I think asking what self-identified rationalists have to say about that is entirely appropriate. As mwengler implies, a religious background is as good a place to get values from as anyplace else.
I was raised as an atheist, toyed with Quakerism for a while, but went back to atheism, but with a kinder view of religion. Quakers may not be great at cost-benefit tradeoffs, but they’ve been at the forefront of progressive values forever. I’m also a Unitarian-Universalist atheist, and enjoy the community a church provides (a mix of atheists and theists). We teach our kids about all major religions, and then let them choose their beliefs (most choose what amounts to atheism, but they have some idea who they share the world with. One parent said he brought his kids to UU Sunday School to “inoculate them against religion”).
But if I sing a line like, “Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty… only thou art holy, there is none beside thee, perfect in power, love and purity.” it makes me feel kind of teary and good. As does, “The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want.” What a great idea, that someone else is watching out for you, someone who knows best! Sometimes it can be helpful, for instance for reducing unproductive anxiety. 90% of me focuses on the fact it isn’t true and 10% on its value. For a questioning believer, maybe it’s 90-10 the other way.
All I ask of believers is to subscribe to what I’ve heard described as the liberal bargain. We do not expect to come to agreement on important issues of values and how life should be led. Persuasion is fine, but coercion is not. All you have to do is be a good neighbor, abiding by widely shared ethical beliefs: leave other people alone and treat them with a modicum of respect. Let the public schools teach (secular) science. We do interfere inside families enough to prevent child abuse, but that’s about it (and arguably we do too much of that). And I hope/expect that all a believer needs to buy into the liberal bargain is just a little bit of doubt.
So I say go ahead and pray, go to church, whatever works. Churches do a lot of good works. You already know that God helps those who help themselves, which means you’re doing pretty much the same thing with or without a God.
I realize some people who were raised with religion and reject it have substantial anger against religion and need to denounce religion in strong terms. Sometimes they seem to want to make believers feel like idiots. I think that is unfortunate.
We agree that no one has the Truth and people are free to believe what they want.
This seems like a bad idea at multiple levels. If Jack Chick or some other extremist is correct, he better spend the time convincing us, and it would be irresponsible not to. Moreover, if some moderate religion is correct, then I’d still like them to try and convince me because I’d rather have correct knowledge. Believing in something and deliberately not discussing or debating it might be a useful taboo for civil societies to function, but it may not be so great for people actually trying to understand.
I modified my comment slightly to not refer to Truth. But I do think it is unreasonable to expect that people will agree on many values, e.g. whether art, psychotherapy, the worship of some particular concept of God, maximizing lifespan, hedonism, making money etc. are how best to live one’s life. Discussion and debate are fine (but not required). But if an opponent doesn’t convince me that premarital sex is wrong (for instance), he or she may not harass or coerce me.
When deciding how to allocate your time in life, one choice to make is what arguments to listen to and what not. You have to make a judgment on very little information. The older you get, the more you are likely to judge that a new argument isn’t of a kind to convince you (though it’s still a probabilistic judgment). Fortunately, others whose opinions you respect may listen, and if it’s really good they’ll alert you.
expect that people will agree on many values, e.g. whether art, psychotherapy, the worship of some particular concept of God, maximizing lifespan, hedonism, making money etc. are how best to live one’s life.
But one of these isn’t just a value question but a factual question about the real world. For example even if one is a utilitarian, if there’s a classical vengeful deity, then knowing so is important. It isn’t a good idea to confuse questions of values with questions about the nature of the universe.
All I ask of believers is to subscribe to what I’ve heard described as the liberal bargain. We agree that no one has the Truth and people are free to believe what they want.
I much prefer the simpler bargain “people are free to believe what they want.” Worrying too much about The Truth is bad.
I like this post. You’re coming from religion, you’re seeking truth, you don’t want to toss out the religion completely. I think asking what self-identified rationalists have to say about that is entirely appropriate. As mwengler implies, a religious background is as good a place to get values from as anyplace else.
I was raised as an atheist, toyed with Quakerism for a while, but went back to atheism, but with a kinder view of religion. Quakers may not be great at cost-benefit tradeoffs, but they’ve been at the forefront of progressive values forever. I’m also a Unitarian-Universalist atheist, and enjoy the community a church provides (a mix of atheists and theists). We teach our kids about all major religions, and then let them choose their beliefs (most choose what amounts to atheism, but they have some idea who they share the world with. One parent said he brought his kids to UU Sunday School to “inoculate them against religion”).
But if I sing a line like, “Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty… only thou art holy, there is none beside thee, perfect in power, love and purity.” it makes me feel kind of teary and good. As does, “The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want.” What a great idea, that someone else is watching out for you, someone who knows best! Sometimes it can be helpful, for instance for reducing unproductive anxiety. 90% of me focuses on the fact it isn’t true and 10% on its value. For a questioning believer, maybe it’s 90-10 the other way.
All I ask of believers is to subscribe to what I’ve heard described as the liberal bargain. We do not expect to come to agreement on important issues of values and how life should be led. Persuasion is fine, but coercion is not. All you have to do is be a good neighbor, abiding by widely shared ethical beliefs: leave other people alone and treat them with a modicum of respect. Let the public schools teach (secular) science. We do interfere inside families enough to prevent child abuse, but that’s about it (and arguably we do too much of that). And I hope/expect that all a believer needs to buy into the liberal bargain is just a little bit of doubt.
So I say go ahead and pray, go to church, whatever works. Churches do a lot of good works. You already know that God helps those who help themselves, which means you’re doing pretty much the same thing with or without a God.
I realize some people who were raised with religion and reject it have substantial anger against religion and need to denounce religion in strong terms. Sometimes they seem to want to make believers feel like idiots. I think that is unfortunate.
This seems like a bad idea at multiple levels. If Jack Chick or some other extremist is correct, he better spend the time convincing us, and it would be irresponsible not to. Moreover, if some moderate religion is correct, then I’d still like them to try and convince me because I’d rather have correct knowledge. Believing in something and deliberately not discussing or debating it might be a useful taboo for civil societies to function, but it may not be so great for people actually trying to understand.
I modified my comment slightly to not refer to Truth. But I do think it is unreasonable to expect that people will agree on many values, e.g. whether art, psychotherapy, the worship of some particular concept of God, maximizing lifespan, hedonism, making money etc. are how best to live one’s life. Discussion and debate are fine (but not required). But if an opponent doesn’t convince me that premarital sex is wrong (for instance), he or she may not harass or coerce me.
When deciding how to allocate your time in life, one choice to make is what arguments to listen to and what not. You have to make a judgment on very little information. The older you get, the more you are likely to judge that a new argument isn’t of a kind to convince you (though it’s still a probabilistic judgment). Fortunately, others whose opinions you respect may listen, and if it’s really good they’ll alert you.
But one of these isn’t just a value question but a factual question about the real world. For example even if one is a utilitarian, if there’s a classical vengeful deity, then knowing so is important. It isn’t a good idea to confuse questions of values with questions about the nature of the universe.
I much prefer the simpler bargain “people are free to believe what they want.” Worrying too much about The Truth is bad.
It took me a long time to realize that was my main problem with Quakerism. I did finally wise up enough to commit to not being on any committees.