As a sane feminist, I was happy to discover sane MRA type sites such as ozy’s No Seriously, What About teh Menz?, and the over-arching The Good Men Project. These sites opened my eyes to the valid concerns of the MRA movement, such as issues regarding male rape, child custody, and the censure and unavailability of feminine style toys (dolls, dresses, EZ Bake Ovens, etc) for little boys.
In my view, these are not MRA issues. These are feminist issues. There doesn’t need to be a “Men’s Rights Movement”; because men’s rights should be an inherent component of the feminist perspective, which is that femininity should be nurtured and encouraged instead of being stamped out. Whether a feminine [i.e., nurturing, compassionate, cooperative and socially-conscious] personality happens to bud within a body with a vagina or a penis should be irrelevant.
It should be part of the feminist foundation, at the “bedrock” as it were, that people have the right to choose their orientation, their personality, their gender, and their social roles regardless of what kind of dangly bits they have, and that judgments about the worth or suitability of a particular person should be made based on that person’s actual capabilities, rather than based on social assumptions or even aggregate statistical stereotyping. If rape is bad, then feminism should be against rape, not merely against rape of women. If gender stereotyping is bad, then feminism should be against gender stereotyping, not merely against gender stereotyping of women. If external reproductive control is bad, then feminism should be against external reproductive control, not merely against external reproductive control of women.
If using gender norms to devaluing the personhood of human beings is bad, then feminism should be against any process that would use a gender norm to devalue the personhood of human beings, including processes within so-called “feminism” that would say “our concern is only what happens to women.”
This is why, as a human being with a penis, I feel that I can legitimately say “I am a feminist”, rather than merely saying “I am a feminist ally”.
In my view, these are not MRA issues. These are feminist issues. There doesn’t need to be a “Men’s Rights Movement”; because men’s rights should be an inherent component of the feminist perspective, which is that femininity should be nurtured and encouraged instead of being stamped out. Whether a feminine [i.e., nurturing, compassionate, cooperative and socially-conscious] personality happens to bud within a body with a vagina or a penis should be irrelevant.
Personally, I think the idea that being nurturing, compassionate, and socially conscious, are inherently feminine and thus the natural province of feminism, is just as unreasonable and offensive as saying that courage and proactiveness are inherently masculine and therefore causes like getting more women involved in the military or police work are naturally not the province of feminism.
I would agree that there was no need for a Men’s Rights Movement if there were a Gender Egalitarianism Movement that reliably functioned as such, but feminists do not reliably support addressing all issues of gender inequality. I think most people would agree that women are, on net, more societally disadvantaged than men, but from this, many feminists conclude “therefore, bias and discrimination faced by men is not an important problem to deal with now,” whereas I think that a more appropriate Gender Egalitarianism Movement would take the position “we should address issues of bias and discrimination in order of the importance of the specific issues and the return on the investment in addressing them, not on the basis of which gender is more disadvantaged.”
I may identify myself as a Feminist rather than a Gender Egalitarian depending on what connotations I feel will be advantageous in a particular discussion, but I’d sooner get behind an argument that with a proper Gender Egalitarian Movement, there is no need for Feminism, than one that with a proper Feminist Movement, there’s no need for a Men’s Rights Movement.
Whether a feminine [i.e., nurturing, compassionate, cooperative and socially-conscious] personality happens to bud within a body with a vagina or a penis should be irrelevant.
I can see where you’re coming from here, but I think that the work should instead be put into broadening masculinity. To make a loaded analogy, saying “it’s okay for boys to act feminine” when they want to do something traditionally female is like saying “it’s okay for black people to act white” when they want to do something traditionally european. You can define the words so that the sentence parses, but you can’t remove the additional meaning to make the sentence a good idea.
Besides, it’s fine to use different words to describe people focused on different things, even if they use the same toolbox.
Once you describe “feminine” as “nurturing, compassionate, cooperative and socially-conscious” and define feminism as a movement to protect all things feminine, I think you have gone far beyond what most people mean by either word.
As Eugine_Nier just stated, it isn’t the feminists who want to place “nurturing, compassionate, cooperative and socially-conscious” solely within the label “feminine.”
If we could stop labeling virtues by sex, that would be a definite improvement.
Actually “nurturing, compassionate, cooperative and socially-conscious” is pretty close to the definition of “feminine” traditionalists use when arguing in favor of separate spheres for men and women.
In other words, traditionalists deny men the right/obligation to be nurturing, compassionate, cooperative and socially-conscious—exactly like feminists always say. Lol.
Using feminism to refer to issue’s of men’s rights is like using the phrase white power to refer to issue’s about african american rights. Whatever argument you then make about broadening the meaning of the term is obviously and instantly undermined by the linguistic problems present.
Also: a LOT of people use feminism to mean “more rights for women and who cares about men?”. Your more broad species of feminism is inclusive almost to the point of being meaningless. It’s like using the word feminism to mean “good”.
In my view, these are not MRA issues. These are feminist issues. There doesn’t need to be a “Men’s Rights Movement”; because men’s rights should be an inherent component of the feminist perspective, which is that femininity should be nurtured and encouraged instead of being stamped out. Whether a feminine [i.e., nurturing, compassionate, cooperative and socially-conscious] personality happens to bud within a body with a vagina or a penis should be irrelevant.
It should be part of the feminist foundation, at the “bedrock” as it were, that people have the right to choose their orientation, their personality, their gender, and their social roles regardless of what kind of dangly bits they have, and that judgments about the worth or suitability of a particular person should be made based on that person’s actual capabilities, rather than based on social assumptions or even aggregate statistical stereotyping. If rape is bad, then feminism should be against rape, not merely against rape of women. If gender stereotyping is bad, then feminism should be against gender stereotyping, not merely against gender stereotyping of women. If external reproductive control is bad, then feminism should be against external reproductive control, not merely against external reproductive control of women.
If using gender norms to devaluing the personhood of human beings is bad, then feminism should be against any process that would use a gender norm to devalue the personhood of human beings, including processes within so-called “feminism” that would say “our concern is only what happens to women.”
This is why, as a human being with a penis, I feel that I can legitimately say “I am a feminist”, rather than merely saying “I am a feminist ally”.
Personally, I think the idea that being nurturing, compassionate, and socially conscious, are inherently feminine and thus the natural province of feminism, is just as unreasonable and offensive as saying that courage and proactiveness are inherently masculine and therefore causes like getting more women involved in the military or police work are naturally not the province of feminism.
I would agree that there was no need for a Men’s Rights Movement if there were a Gender Egalitarianism Movement that reliably functioned as such, but feminists do not reliably support addressing all issues of gender inequality. I think most people would agree that women are, on net, more societally disadvantaged than men, but from this, many feminists conclude “therefore, bias and discrimination faced by men is not an important problem to deal with now,” whereas I think that a more appropriate Gender Egalitarianism Movement would take the position “we should address issues of bias and discrimination in order of the importance of the specific issues and the return on the investment in addressing them, not on the basis of which gender is more disadvantaged.”
I may identify myself as a Feminist rather than a Gender Egalitarian depending on what connotations I feel will be advantageous in a particular discussion, but I’d sooner get behind an argument that with a proper Gender Egalitarian Movement, there is no need for Feminism, than one that with a proper Feminist Movement, there’s no need for a Men’s Rights Movement.
I can see where you’re coming from here, but I think that the work should instead be put into broadening masculinity. To make a loaded analogy, saying “it’s okay for boys to act feminine” when they want to do something traditionally female is like saying “it’s okay for black people to act white” when they want to do something traditionally european. You can define the words so that the sentence parses, but you can’t remove the additional meaning to make the sentence a good idea.
Besides, it’s fine to use different words to describe people focused on different things, even if they use the same toolbox.
Once you describe “feminine” as “nurturing, compassionate, cooperative and socially-conscious” and define feminism as a movement to protect all things feminine, I think you have gone far beyond what most people mean by either word.
As Eugine_Nier just stated, it isn’t the feminists who want to place “nurturing, compassionate, cooperative and socially-conscious” solely within the label “feminine.”
If we could stop labeling virtues by sex, that would be a definite improvement.
Actually “nurturing, compassionate, cooperative and socially-conscious” is pretty close to the definition of “feminine” traditionalists use when arguing in favor of separate spheres for men and women.
In other words, traditionalists deny men the right/obligation to be nurturing, compassionate, cooperative and socially-conscious—exactly like feminists always say. Lol.
Using feminism to refer to issue’s of men’s rights is like using the phrase white power to refer to issue’s about african american rights. Whatever argument you then make about broadening the meaning of the term is obviously and instantly undermined by the linguistic problems present.
Also: a LOT of people use feminism to mean “more rights for women and who cares about men?”. Your more broad species of feminism is inclusive almost to the point of being meaningless. It’s like using the word feminism to mean “good”.