(Rch25) Given that Siobhan is interested in the motives of various key players, I am surprised that she’s not asking Elspeth what Elspeth would say to them in order to communicate to them the value of turning against the Volturi. (At least the ones Elspeth has met; I’m not clear on whether merely having memories of having met them counts, for purposes of Elspeth’s power).
Were it anyone but Siobhan, I would assume she just didn’t think of it, but given Siobhan that seems to imply that it wouldn’t actually be useful to do.
But I can’t figure out why it wouldn’t be. Given how Elspeth’s power seems to work, Magic is a far better judge of what a given target would find convincing than Elspeth is, and that seems almost a royal road to the sort of information Siobhan wants.
Elspeth’s power helps her convey facts and her own feelings. She could comprehensibly explain to people “the Volturi performed the following actions and I feel like so about it”, but she has no magical advantage beyond that at convincing anyone to adopt her values.
Well, I didn’t mean convincing anyone to adopt her values, I meant convincing them to adopt a particular course of action by communicating the facts that they would find most convincing.
E.g., if I want to convince someone to go to the store and get me chocolate-chip ice cream, perhaps the most effective way to convince Sam to do this is to let him know that I would really appreciate it (which is true), and the most effective way to convince Pat to do it is to let her know I’d pay her $10 (which is also true). That reflects a difference in their values, neither of which has anything to do with my own, but the course of action is the same across all three of us.
What I had been thinking about was choosing ways to express the value of the target turning against the Volturi, in terms of the target’s values. E.g., “it would be worthwhile for you to do so, in order to avenge your dead mate” or “it would be worthwhile for you to do so, in order to avenge your shamed mother” or whatever it is.
That doesn’t change anyone’s values, it just communicates true things to them, which Elspeth knows, that most effectively convince them that it’s consistent with their values to do something in particular, which it is. (I mean, unless it actually isn’t consistent with their values to do so, in which case presumably that would be useful knowledge as well.)
But, OK, I think I understand you: Elspeth’s power lets her communicate that some fact X is true in a way that most effectively convinces the target of the truth of X, but it doesn’t help her select true Xes to communicate for other purposes.
(Rch25) Given that Siobhan is interested in the motives of various key players, I am surprised that she’s not asking Elspeth what Elspeth would say to them in order to communicate to them the value of turning against the Volturi. (At least the ones Elspeth has met; I’m not clear on whether merely having memories of having met them counts, for purposes of Elspeth’s power).
Were it anyone but Siobhan, I would assume she just didn’t think of it, but given Siobhan that seems to imply that it wouldn’t actually be useful to do.
But I can’t figure out why it wouldn’t be. Given how Elspeth’s power seems to work, Magic is a far better judge of what a given target would find convincing than Elspeth is, and that seems almost a royal road to the sort of information Siobhan wants.
What am I missing?
Elspeth’s power helps her convey facts and her own feelings. She could comprehensibly explain to people “the Volturi performed the following actions and I feel like so about it”, but she has no magical advantage beyond that at convincing anyone to adopt her values.
Well, I didn’t mean convincing anyone to adopt her values, I meant convincing them to adopt a particular course of action by communicating the facts that they would find most convincing.
E.g., if I want to convince someone to go to the store and get me chocolate-chip ice cream, perhaps the most effective way to convince Sam to do this is to let him know that I would really appreciate it (which is true), and the most effective way to convince Pat to do it is to let her know I’d pay her $10 (which is also true). That reflects a difference in their values, neither of which has anything to do with my own, but the course of action is the same across all three of us.
What I had been thinking about was choosing ways to express the value of the target turning against the Volturi, in terms of the target’s values. E.g., “it would be worthwhile for you to do so, in order to avenge your dead mate” or “it would be worthwhile for you to do so, in order to avenge your shamed mother” or whatever it is.
That doesn’t change anyone’s values, it just communicates true things to them, which Elspeth knows, that most effectively convince them that it’s consistent with their values to do something in particular, which it is. (I mean, unless it actually isn’t consistent with their values to do so, in which case presumably that would be useful knowledge as well.)
But, OK, I think I understand you: Elspeth’s power lets her communicate that some fact X is true in a way that most effectively convinces the target of the truth of X, but it doesn’t help her select true Xes to communicate for other purposes.
Yeah, that makes sense. Thanks!