Only that a criticism that steelmans is, typically, more valuable than criticism that doesn’t.
I disagree. Steelmanning is nice, but I don’t think it necessarily adds value. I think there is real value in engaging the actual arguments that the person made, in the way that they made them. If LessWrong is going to train rationalists to argue for their points persuasively, I think it’s imperative that we engage with the actual evidence that is presented, and not the idealized version of the evidence that would have convinced us of the conclusions.
Edit: After thinking about it some more, I have realized that steelmanning poses a danger to the listener as well as to the speaker. Namely, given two arguments of equal strength, one which I am able to steelman, and one which I am not, it’s quite possible I will find the argument that I am able to steelman more convincing, even though it has no more evidence behind it than the argument that I am not able to steelman. It seems to me that steelmanning exaggerates our cognitive blindspots, rather than reducing them. Can you show me that steelmanning is not an epistemic hazard?
Yup, see Ozy’s post Against Steelmanning and Eliezer’s fb post agreeing that starts “Be it clear: Steelmanning is not a tool of understanding and communication.”
Hmm. I’m not sure how much of this is difference-in-predicted-best strategy-for-truthseeking, difference in values, or unclarity around the term “Steelman”
I do think there are bad ways to Steelman, and I think there are times where Steelmanning isn’t the appropriate thing to do. But the way you’re using it it sounds like you mean “rationalize reasons something might be true”, as opposed to “think about the strongest version of an argument.”
If LessWrong is going to train rationalists to argue for their points persuasively...
Doesn’t really seem like what LessWrong should be trying to do, to me. The point here is to figure out useful true things (and to have a culture of people who are good at figuring out true things, but individually and collectively).
It doesn’t matter (as much) whether someone presents a good or bad argument for a thing. What ultimately matters is “is the thing true? Is it important? If it’s not true, is the problem the argument was trying to address important and are there other ways to address it?”
If a claim has some bad logic in it, but then you fix the logic and the claim makes sense, you should believe it, because, well, the improved claim makes sense. (You should continue to not believe the original claim with the broken logic, because it had broken logic)
It sounds like you’re worried about times when you might think you’re doing that but are in fact just deluding yourself. (Which I agree is a bad thing that happens sometimes, but I don’t think Steelmanning makes you any more prone to that than arguing in the first place. I think it’s much more frequent for people to make intellectual mistakes by staying in “attack” mode than by being overly accommodating of people they disagree with)
If a claim has some bad logic in it, but then you fix the logic and the claim makes sense, you should believe it
Yes, I agree with that. However, I think it’s very easy to change the conclusion in the process of changing the inferential steps or the premises. If arguments were presented mathematically, using formal logic, I would have no objection to steelmanning. It would be obvious if the conclusion of an argument had changed in the process of fixing logic errors. However, we discuss in English, not math, and as a result I’m wary of engaging with anything other than the text as it is written. I do not have confidence in my ability to change my interlocutor’s argument while preserving its conclusion.
FWIW, while this isn’t steelmanning, this recent comment of yours seems to be doing the general motion I’m trying to point to here, of which steelmanning is a subset: you point out a flaw in someone’s argument, while acknowledging the underlying problem they’re trying to solve, and then contribute additional possible solutions. Constructive criticism rather than destructive.
(This is not me necessarily endorsing your solution in that comment, since it’s a complicated domain and I haven’t thought about it thoroughly myself, but the comment is structured in a way that helps other people who join the discussion continue to operate in a “help figure out something useful rather than attack each other.”)
I disagree. Steelmanning is nice, but I don’t think it necessarily adds value. I think there is real value in engaging the actual arguments that the person made, in the way that they made them. If LessWrong is going to train rationalists to argue for their points persuasively, I think it’s imperative that we engage with the actual evidence that is presented, and not the idealized version of the evidence that would have convinced us of the conclusions.
Edit: After thinking about it some more, I have realized that steelmanning poses a danger to the listener as well as to the speaker. Namely, given two arguments of equal strength, one which I am able to steelman, and one which I am not, it’s quite possible I will find the argument that I am able to steelman more convincing, even though it has no more evidence behind it than the argument that I am not able to steelman. It seems to me that steelmanning exaggerates our cognitive blindspots, rather than reducing them. Can you show me that steelmanning is not an epistemic hazard?
Yup, see Ozy’s post Against Steelmanning and Eliezer’s fb post agreeing that starts “Be it clear: Steelmanning is not a tool of understanding and communication.”
Hmm. I’m not sure how much of this is difference-in-predicted-best strategy-for-truthseeking, difference in values, or unclarity around the term “Steelman”
I do think there are bad ways to Steelman, and I think there are times where Steelmanning isn’t the appropriate thing to do. But the way you’re using it it sounds like you mean “rationalize reasons something might be true”, as opposed to “think about the strongest version of an argument.”
Doesn’t really seem like what LessWrong should be trying to do, to me. The point here is to figure out useful true things (and to have a culture of people who are good at figuring out true things, but individually and collectively).
It doesn’t matter (as much) whether someone presents a good or bad argument for a thing. What ultimately matters is “is the thing true? Is it important? If it’s not true, is the problem the argument was trying to address important and are there other ways to address it?”
If a claim has some bad logic in it, but then you fix the logic and the claim makes sense, you should believe it, because, well, the improved claim makes sense. (You should continue to not believe the original claim with the broken logic, because it had broken logic)
It sounds like you’re worried about times when you might think you’re doing that but are in fact just deluding yourself. (Which I agree is a bad thing that happens sometimes, but I don’t think Steelmanning makes you any more prone to that than arguing in the first place. I think it’s much more frequent for people to make intellectual mistakes by staying in “attack” mode than by being overly accommodating of people they disagree with)
Yes, I agree with that. However, I think it’s very easy to change the conclusion in the process of changing the inferential steps or the premises. If arguments were presented mathematically, using formal logic, I would have no objection to steelmanning. It would be obvious if the conclusion of an argument had changed in the process of fixing logic errors. However, we discuss in English, not math, and as a result I’m wary of engaging with anything other than the text as it is written. I do not have confidence in my ability to change my interlocutor’s argument while preserving its conclusion.
FWIW, while this isn’t steelmanning, this recent comment of yours seems to be doing the general motion I’m trying to point to here, of which steelmanning is a subset: you point out a flaw in someone’s argument, while acknowledging the underlying problem they’re trying to solve, and then contribute additional possible solutions. Constructive criticism rather than destructive.
(This is not me necessarily endorsing your solution in that comment, since it’s a complicated domain and I haven’t thought about it thoroughly myself, but the comment is structured in a way that helps other people who join the discussion continue to operate in a “help figure out something useful rather than attack each other.”)