I know what you’re talking about and I think it’s a mistake. Specifically I think it’s an exemplar of a larger category of cases where a marginalized group’s adaptation to unfavorable circumstances is mistaken by culture (and by evo psych, which has an alarming tendency to make excuses such things) as being a fundamental facet of their nature.
I’m confused by you using the word ‘adaptation’ and differentiating that from a fundamental facet of their nature. If women predisposed to be hypergamous outcompeted women predisposed to not be hypergamous (because hypergamy is the game-theoretically correct plan), then shouldn’t we expect there to be more women predisposed to hypergamy now? The counterargument would have to be that sexual selection strategies can’t be inherited.
I was perhaps confusing in my use of language. To clarify, I mean volitional behavioral adaptation, not evolutionary adaptation. Or to spell it out, the people in the marginalized group have made a (contextually) sensible decision to advance their agendas by seizing the opportunities for power, resources, status etc which the restrictive social system leaves open to them.
For example, a poor Indian woman gaining resources through marriage (because she can’t dream of being independently rich by her own effort), or a working-class woman in England trying to marry a footballer and raise her status (because social mobility is broken and it’s that or a career in Asda).
Because people can and do adapt their behavior very simply and quickly, and we have an inheritance for this kind of flexibility, there isn’t a need to produce a hypothesis of inherited behavior. And in fact, producing that hypothesis pretends that a social misfeature, sexism and its side effects, is somehow hardwired and thus blameless. Which is hogwash.
producing that hypothesis pretends that a social misfeature [...] is somehow hardwired and thus blameless
You can’t derive an ought from an is; the hypothesis that a trait is “hardwired” (that is, that there exists a biological predisposition towards that trait) does not imply that the trait is blameless. Failure to appreciate this point leads to confusion: in particular, we must be careful not to reject hypotheses that might be true, just because they are unpleasant or even horrifying to contemplate.
Since our culture links misdeeds to volition, things not volitional are generally considered blameless. But I wasn’t implying that the hypothesis is right, quite the opposite. I was implying that people are making untrue excuses by deflecting blame onto spurious made-up instincts.
One assumes- but why? Surely there are just as many poor Indian men who can’t dream of being independently rich by their own effort, shouldn’t they be marrying the daughters of footballers?
It’s common for modern viewers to think of gold diggers as female, but this is only true in modern times. In historical eras where men controlled all their wives’ money, and received dowries upon marrying, they were much more likely to be gold diggers than women. The actual term “gold-digger” is rarely applied to men however; a male gold-digger is normally called a “fortune hunter”. If you go back far enough, you’ll find that all gold diggers were men, because marriage was originally an agreement made between the groom and the bride’s father, with the bride having little to no say in the matter. It’s therefore common in historical texts for the male to be the gold digger, but it isn’t always spelled out. An excellent example is in Emma, where Mr. Elton is never actually referred to as a gold-digger despite copious evidence that he is. Austen probably thought it too blindingly obvious to mention.
Of course, this kind of expectation is hardly unique to one culture. My thinking is that many cultures that encourage women marrying up will encourage men marrying down. In a culture that encouraged women to marry down, men would likely be encouraged to marry up.
Not strictly true. I’m from India and have heard many stories of men asking their fathers-in-law for money for large expenditures such as building/buying houses. Both in my extended family and in my friends circle.
Also, the dowry system in India is a strong evidence against this hypothesis. The amounts of money that are paid in some parts for highly educated young men boggles the mind. The dowry amounts seem to depend both on the bridegroom’s qualifications (higher for doctors etc) and also on the bride’s own attractiveness.
Interesting. Thanks for your perspective. I think you probably know more about this topic than I do. What do you think the expectations are for the husband, and for the wife’s family? It seems that there is an expectation that the husband is able to earn money (ie. since you mentioned that large amounts of money are given to highly educated men, my assumption is that the wife’s family is expecting him to earn money with his education, but if you think that’s untrue I’d be interested to know your reasoning). However, you seem to be saying that there is also the expectation that the wife’s family will help him with money. Is this expectation generally only for a short duration of time or is it considered a long-term obligation? Is there any expectation in the reverse (that the husband help the wife’s family with money)?
Yes, I believe the general expectation is that the husband will be able to earn money in the future in order to support his family. So to that extent, the answer to Jack’s question of why poor Indian men don’t marry the daughters of footballers is that the woman’s family will simply not allow such a thing to take place- and eloping with the girl against the wishes of the family is not likely to earn them much by way of dowry.
From what I understand there is no long term expectation of help with money from the wife’s family apart from the dowry amounts paid at the time of the wedding. However, it is also not terribly uncommon to find that even years after the wedding there are requests/demands for money and these are fulfilled. There are generally no expectations for the husband to support the wife’s family with money.
Standard disclaimers about the size of India and the diversity of practices there apply to this comment as well. :)
I’m confused by you using the word ‘adaptation’ and differentiating that from a fundamental facet of their nature. If women predisposed to be hypergamous outcompeted women predisposed to not be hypergamous (because hypergamy is the game-theoretically correct plan), then shouldn’t we expect there to be more women predisposed to hypergamy now? The counterargument would have to be that sexual selection strategies can’t be inherited.
I was perhaps confusing in my use of language. To clarify, I mean volitional behavioral adaptation, not evolutionary adaptation. Or to spell it out, the people in the marginalized group have made a (contextually) sensible decision to advance their agendas by seizing the opportunities for power, resources, status etc which the restrictive social system leaves open to them.
For example, a poor Indian woman gaining resources through marriage (because she can’t dream of being independently rich by her own effort), or a working-class woman in England trying to marry a footballer and raise her status (because social mobility is broken and it’s that or a career in Asda).
Because people can and do adapt their behavior very simply and quickly, and we have an inheritance for this kind of flexibility, there isn’t a need to produce a hypothesis of inherited behavior. And in fact, producing that hypothesis pretends that a social misfeature, sexism and its side effects, is somehow hardwired and thus blameless. Which is hogwash.
You can’t derive an ought from an is; the hypothesis that a trait is “hardwired” (that is, that there exists a biological predisposition towards that trait) does not imply that the trait is blameless. Failure to appreciate this point leads to confusion: in particular, we must be careful not to reject hypotheses that might be true, just because they are unpleasant or even horrifying to contemplate.
Since our culture links misdeeds to volition, things not volitional are generally considered blameless. But I wasn’t implying that the hypothesis is right, quite the opposite. I was implying that people are making untrue excuses by deflecting blame onto spurious made-up instincts.
How do you explain men marrying down?
They don’t care about status so much?
My previous flippant response misread Jack’s comment
One assumes- but why? Surely there are just as many poor Indian men who can’t dream of being independently rich by their own effort, shouldn’t they be marrying the daughters of footballers?
TV Tropes explains male gold diggers:
Maybe because the culture tries to influence men into not depending on their wife’s family for money? An example of vows made in some Indian weddings:
During kanyadaan, the bride’s parents give their daughter away in marriage. The groom makes three promises – to be just (dharma), earn sufficiently to support his family, (artha) and love his wife (kama).
Of course, this kind of expectation is hardly unique to one culture. My thinking is that many cultures that encourage women marrying up will encourage men marrying down. In a culture that encouraged women to marry down, men would likely be encouraged to marry up.
Not strictly true. I’m from India and have heard many stories of men asking their fathers-in-law for money for large expenditures such as building/buying houses. Both in my extended family and in my friends circle.
Also, the dowry system in India is a strong evidence against this hypothesis. The amounts of money that are paid in some parts for highly educated young men boggles the mind. The dowry amounts seem to depend both on the bridegroom’s qualifications (higher for doctors etc) and also on the bride’s own attractiveness.
Interesting. Thanks for your perspective. I think you probably know more about this topic than I do. What do you think the expectations are for the husband, and for the wife’s family? It seems that there is an expectation that the husband is able to earn money (ie. since you mentioned that large amounts of money are given to highly educated men, my assumption is that the wife’s family is expecting him to earn money with his education, but if you think that’s untrue I’d be interested to know your reasoning). However, you seem to be saying that there is also the expectation that the wife’s family will help him with money. Is this expectation generally only for a short duration of time or is it considered a long-term obligation? Is there any expectation in the reverse (that the husband help the wife’s family with money)?
Yes, I believe the general expectation is that the husband will be able to earn money in the future in order to support his family. So to that extent, the answer to Jack’s question of why poor Indian men don’t marry the daughters of footballers is that the woman’s family will simply not allow such a thing to take place- and eloping with the girl against the wishes of the family is not likely to earn them much by way of dowry.
From what I understand there is no long term expectation of help with money from the wife’s family apart from the dowry amounts paid at the time of the wedding. However, it is also not terribly uncommon to find that even years after the wedding there are requests/demands for money and these are fulfilled. There are generally no expectations for the husband to support the wife’s family with money.
Standard disclaimers about the size of India and the diversity of practices there apply to this comment as well. :)