“You are morbidly obese.” “You are so tiny I feel like I’m crushing you.” “You act like I’m your last hope of ever meeting a girl.” “Your religion forbids premarital sex and that won’t work for me.” “Your conversation is just really boring.”
Are you actually saying that people want to be told these things?
Some are stupid and will shoot the messenger even though they’re emotionally better off knowing for certain than just wandering in an unhappy fog, wondering over and over what they’re doing wrong.
If they ask directly, I’d say, tell them honestly.
Every time I have ever pointed out specific things I don’t like in answer to “Why won’t you date me?” (back when I was available) the guy has used my reply to insist that he will change and beg for another chance. Then I have to say, “No, I don’t believe you will ever change in that way, and even if you did it wouldn’t be anytime soon, and offering to change yourself for me is really weird.” And then he argues that no, he can change right away, it’s no trouble, please give him a chance. It’s terribly unpleasant. I stopped giving specific answers, and instead said things like, “I guess we just don’t have the right chemistry.” Actually I think that’s a perfectly good and honest answer, and it’s the one that’s always true even when there’s no specific thing I can put my finger on.
I can’t pick out exactly what about someone turns me on or doesn’t turn me on because it’s subconscious, it’s my subconscious mind processing a million details all at once, and even when a person does have, say, bad BO, that’s just something that I was actually able to notice consciously so I might think of that as The Reason but once they fix their BO, all the other stuff, the millions of details only my subconscious picks up, those will still be there and the person will be pissed that the “fix” didn’t work. So I think actually giving a specific reason, or even two or three, is not as honest as just saying chalking it up to “chemistry” (which of course is shorthand for “it’s too complex and subconscious to explain”).
If I really wanted to try explaining a lack of chemistry, I’d probably be able to do no better than, “Some things about you, especially your para-language but other aspects of your behavior as well, though I can’t put my finger on them, rub me the wrong way, or at least inspire no romantic response in me.” Would anyone really find that helpful?
Perhaps you could start by saying, “I can only tell you if you’re asking for information and you promise not to argue.” I don’t know how practical that is in real life.
LWers could have a convention for saying to each other, “Please tell me so that I know how I was perceived by you. I will not argue and tell you that you perceived me differently, I will not blame the messenger, and I will not subject you to the unpleasant experience of hearing me offer to change.”
At first, I thought that making a new convention is the wrong way to go about it. How many conventions should we need to remember then? making new conventions all over the place for LWer’s will be too difficult, too many different social rules to juggle.
For example, in such a situation, as in asking a person out, you would need to think about the LW community conventions and then normal conventions when deciding actions. But then, you couldn’t do better unless you allow for change.
If a community is to be truly made, perhaps a set of conventions can be constructed so that, this convention will slot nicely into an easily searchable hierarchy: Relationships → relationship changing → approaches/dating requests. You could make an iPhone app so that the LWer looking for love (or wishing to do some social action) can quickly and discretely check up the currently accepted conventions/guidelines. If someone deviates, you can have all sorts of fun deciding to call them on it.
The problem isn’t in remembering social conventions, humans naturally do it and you’re using oodles of them now.
If there is a problem, it is in consciously calling for the new social convention, as it’s the less common way they form. I don’t think there’s anything wrong here, though.
There are some cases where I have made factual errors in which I’d like to be corrected. Like, if a necessary condition of my not wanting to date someone is “I don’t do long-distance relationships and you are about to move to Bangladesh”, and in fact the person is not about to move to Bangladesh because there was some change of plans, this is in fact a fine time to notify me. Or even “my model of you implies that you would, under $circumstance, do $behavior, even though I’ve never directly observed you in $circumstance”.
But yes, if it’s “you have $personal_characteristic”, offering to change it—unless it’s really trivial, on the order of “you use the word ‘splendid’ annoyingly often”, which would rarely if ever be the whole reason anyway—is not a correct answer.
Every time I have ever pointed out specific things I don’t like in answer to “Why won’t you date me?” (back when I was available) the guy has used my reply to insist that he will change and beg for another chance.
I’ve had this kind of thing happened to me and have heard similar stories way too many times. For people who want to ask directly for reasons why they’ve been rejected please remember than an answer is not license to argue the point. Nor is arguing the matter a good idea. You will not argue your way into a healthy relationship- just take the person’s reported feelings and update on that evidence.
I can’t pick out exactly what about someone turns me on or doesn’t turn me on because it’s subconscious, it’s my subconscious mind processing a million details all at once, and even when a person does have, say, bad BO, that’s just something that I was actually able to notice consciously so I might think of that as The Reason but once they fix their BO, all the other stuff, the millions of details only my subconscious picks up, those will still be there and the person will be pissed that the “fix” didn’t work. So I think actually giving a specific reason, or even two or three, is not as honest as just saying chalking it up to “chemistry” (which of course is shorthand for “it’s too complex and subconscious to explain”).
Perhaps best summed up as “I don’t want to answer because I want to avoid verbal overshadowing.”
This is why last time I had cause to ask for an explanation, I specifically disclaimed that I would not be using her reasons to come up with some clever way we could get back together.
It would be nice of you to make sure the guys leave without his illusions about the power of introspection. They apparently think not only that they can instantly change whatever they want about themselves, they think you know and can tell them what would need changing.
I would suggest establishing a personal policy of accepting only one romantic proposition per person-you-are-not-already-dating per week, or something along those lines. That way, if someone offers to change immediately, you can simply explain that you will not consider any such offers from them until the given time period has elapsed.
If they are bullshitting (as seems likely) and have little or no intention/ability to maintain such a change, the delay is enough that they will look elsewhere for short-term satisfaction; if their interest is genuine, persistent, specific to you, and the problems are as superficial and trivially resolved as they claim, 168 hours should be more than long enough to implement such a solution and clear your short-term memory for a new ‘first impression.’
If they don’t want to know, they shouldn’t ask. Lying to someone “for their own good” is, to me, one of the most disgusting concepts in existence.
I’ve been lied to “for my own good” several times. And every single time, all it really did was allow the person lying to me to feel good about themselves, while simultaneously screwing me over.
To illustrate, I’ll go through some likely results of telling someone each of these things Vs. not telling them.
“You are morbidly obese.”
They are now aware that their weight is a major reason for lack of success. This is an extra incentive to lose weight. In addition, it’s possible they weren’t even conscious of how overweight they were previously. So, they gain health benefits.
“You are so tiny I feel like I’m crushing you.”
They now know to be on the look out for either smaller partners, or partners who show signs of a crushing fetish, as opposed to continuing to ask large people who will turn them down.
“You act like I’m your last hope of ever meeting a girl.”
You may need to give more explanation on this one; because it’s likely that there’s some specific part of their behaviour that’s a problem. However, at least they are now aware that they are giving off vibes of desperation, and can try and change that (giving them more self-confidence, because they now know that the problem isn’t something innate)
“Your religion forbids premarital sex and that won’t work for me.”
They get to feel morally superior to you.
“Your conversation is just really boring.”
Provided you are willing to explain why you find their conversation boring, this is helpful. Seriously, I’m friends with a lot of aspergics*, and every time I explain to one of them “you’re being boring, the problem is that you are doing X” they have henceforth put effort into avoiding doing X, which has increased their success in socialising.
*(I suspect this is because I’m a borderline case myself, and therefore often end up acting as a “translator” between them and NTs)
not telling them
They don’t know why they were rejected; and likely find themselves wondering whether they’ll ever be able to be successful, making them feel increasingly desperate and despondent about their chances with each rejection.
While the first few rejecters may successfully prevent this by using “it’s not you it’s me” type lines, it will soon become clear to the rejectee that these are, in fact, often lies.
They are now aware that their weight is a major reason for lack of success. This is an extra incentive to lose weight. In addition, it’s possible they weren’t even conscious of how overweight they were previously. So, they gain health benefits.
This one may not be as good as you think. Fat people are generally told repeatedly that they’re fat.
The risks of being fat are generally wildly overestimated.
I’ve read a moderate number of accounts by fat people who found that their romantic success improved when they stopped pre-rejecting themselves.
However, at least they are now aware that they are giving off vibes of desperation, and can try and change that (giving them more self-confidence, because they now know that the problem isn’t something innate)
From experience: this can lead to resonant doubt/panic attacks. It kinda sucks.
Good point. It can result in a kill-or-cure situation, either they take it as “I can solve this” and gain confidence, or that they can’t, and lose even more.
Provided you are willing to explain why you find their conversation boring, this is helpful.
There were a few articles here on the limited introspection humans in general have. I assume they have less so for others and also are not necessarily able to express their reasons well enough to be understood.
My guess is that Aspergers (or generally people with internalized nonstandard interaction modes) have the best chance to get useful information from people who are also off, but less so.
Questioning a person about why they feel a certain way about you is weird in its own regard. And there is no safe way to communicate about communication.
If they’re asking, it’s often not because they actually want to know, but as a way of telling the other person off for having the wrong opinion. Telling them puts everyone in an extremely uncomfortable position. If I wanted to pass on such information to someone, I’d do so anonymously.
“You are morbidly obese.” “You are so tiny I feel like I’m crushing you.” “You act like I’m your last hope of ever meeting a girl.” “Your religion forbids premarital sex and that won’t work for me.” “Your conversation is just really boring.”
All but one of those are things that people can change. The most difficult one to change (being tiny) is something which people can adjust in part by bulking up and also carrying themselves better. Frankly, speaking as a really tiny male homo sapiens (slightly under 5′2) , if I were to ask someone out and to find out that that was the primary issue I’d be a bit relieved that it wasn’t something else. On the other hand when I was told explicitly that people were not interested in me due to my height it has sometimes felt really awful. But it did cause me to focus more on people who were of below average height or not too tall and that seems to have lead to some success. So even that has been a general positive.
I’m sure you can find slightly nicer ways of saying atleast some of of the above. e.g. “I prefer people who are more physically fit” rather than “you are morbidly obese”.
Um… very often the real reason is unflattering.
“You are morbidly obese.” “You are so tiny I feel like I’m crushing you.” “You act like I’m your last hope of ever meeting a girl.” “Your religion forbids premarital sex and that won’t work for me.” “Your conversation is just really boring.”
Are you actually saying that people want to be told these things?
Some do.
Some are stupid and will shoot the messenger even though they’re emotionally better off knowing for certain than just wandering in an unhappy fog, wondering over and over what they’re doing wrong.
If they ask directly, I’d say, tell them honestly.
Every time I have ever pointed out specific things I don’t like in answer to “Why won’t you date me?” (back when I was available) the guy has used my reply to insist that he will change and beg for another chance. Then I have to say, “No, I don’t believe you will ever change in that way, and even if you did it wouldn’t be anytime soon, and offering to change yourself for me is really weird.” And then he argues that no, he can change right away, it’s no trouble, please give him a chance. It’s terribly unpleasant. I stopped giving specific answers, and instead said things like, “I guess we just don’t have the right chemistry.” Actually I think that’s a perfectly good and honest answer, and it’s the one that’s always true even when there’s no specific thing I can put my finger on.
I can’t pick out exactly what about someone turns me on or doesn’t turn me on because it’s subconscious, it’s my subconscious mind processing a million details all at once, and even when a person does have, say, bad BO, that’s just something that I was actually able to notice consciously so I might think of that as The Reason but once they fix their BO, all the other stuff, the millions of details only my subconscious picks up, those will still be there and the person will be pissed that the “fix” didn’t work. So I think actually giving a specific reason, or even two or three, is not as honest as just saying chalking it up to “chemistry” (which of course is shorthand for “it’s too complex and subconscious to explain”).
If I really wanted to try explaining a lack of chemistry, I’d probably be able to do no better than, “Some things about you, especially your para-language but other aspects of your behavior as well, though I can’t put my finger on them, rub me the wrong way, or at least inspire no romantic response in me.” Would anyone really find that helpful?
Perhaps you could start by saying, “I can only tell you if you’re asking for information and you promise not to argue.” I don’t know how practical that is in real life.
LWers could have a convention for saying to each other, “Please tell me so that I know how I was perceived by you. I will not argue and tell you that you perceived me differently, I will not blame the messenger, and I will not subject you to the unpleasant experience of hearing me offer to change.”
At first, I thought that making a new convention is the wrong way to go about it. How many conventions should we need to remember then? making new conventions all over the place for LWer’s will be too difficult, too many different social rules to juggle.
For example, in such a situation, as in asking a person out, you would need to think about the LW community conventions and then normal conventions when deciding actions. But then, you couldn’t do better unless you allow for change.
If a community is to be truly made, perhaps a set of conventions can be constructed so that, this convention will slot nicely into an easily searchable hierarchy: Relationships → relationship changing → approaches/dating requests. You could make an iPhone app so that the LWer looking for love (or wishing to do some social action) can quickly and discretely check up the currently accepted conventions/guidelines. If someone deviates, you can have all sorts of fun deciding to call them on it.
The problem isn’t in remembering social conventions, humans naturally do it and you’re using oodles of them now.
If there is a problem, it is in consciously calling for the new social convention, as it’s the less common way they form. I don’t think there’s anything wrong here, though.
Hmm, how about shortening that to “SMK’s request?” That’s probably easier shorthand.
There are some cases where I have made factual errors in which I’d like to be corrected. Like, if a necessary condition of my not wanting to date someone is “I don’t do long-distance relationships and you are about to move to Bangladesh”, and in fact the person is not about to move to Bangladesh because there was some change of plans, this is in fact a fine time to notify me. Or even “my model of you implies that you would, under $circumstance, do $behavior, even though I’ve never directly observed you in $circumstance”.
But yes, if it’s “you have $personal_characteristic”, offering to change it—unless it’s really trivial, on the order of “you use the word ‘splendid’ annoyingly often”, which would rarely if ever be the whole reason anyway—is not a correct answer.
I’ve had this kind of thing happened to me and have heard similar stories way too many times. For people who want to ask directly for reasons why they’ve been rejected please remember than an answer is not license to argue the point. Nor is arguing the matter a good idea. You will not argue your way into a healthy relationship- just take the person’s reported feelings and update on that evidence.
Perhaps best summed up as “I don’t want to answer because I want to avoid verbal overshadowing.”
Edit: fixed negation
This is why last time I had cause to ask for an explanation, I specifically disclaimed that I would not be using her reasons to come up with some clever way we could get back together.
It would be nice of you to make sure the guys leave without his illusions about the power of introspection. They apparently think not only that they can instantly change whatever they want about themselves, they think you know and can tell them what would need changing.
“One specific thing I really don’t like is people changing themselves for others.”
Might not be helpful, might not solve that problem, but the look on their face will probably make the conversation slightly more bearable.
I would suggest establishing a personal policy of accepting only one romantic proposition per person-you-are-not-already-dating per week, or something along those lines. That way, if someone offers to change immediately, you can simply explain that you will not consider any such offers from them until the given time period has elapsed.
If they are bullshitting (as seems likely) and have little or no intention/ability to maintain such a change, the delay is enough that they will look elsewhere for short-term satisfaction; if their interest is genuine, persistent, specific to you, and the problems are as superficial and trivially resolved as they claim, 168 hours should be more than long enough to implement such a solution and clear your short-term memory for a new ‘first impression.’
Ok, if it comes up again, I’ll try that.
Well this place is pretty infested with truth/information fetishists, so it might not be a good place to ask.
If they’re asking, they deserve to be told.
If they don’t want to know, they shouldn’t ask. Lying to someone “for their own good” is, to me, one of the most disgusting concepts in existence.
I’ve been lied to “for my own good” several times. And every single time, all it really did was allow the person lying to me to feel good about themselves, while simultaneously screwing me over.
To illustrate, I’ll go through some likely results of telling someone each of these things Vs. not telling them.
They are now aware that their weight is a major reason for lack of success. This is an extra incentive to lose weight. In addition, it’s possible they weren’t even conscious of how overweight they were previously. So, they gain health benefits.
They now know to be on the look out for either smaller partners, or partners who show signs of a crushing fetish, as opposed to continuing to ask large people who will turn them down.
You may need to give more explanation on this one; because it’s likely that there’s some specific part of their behaviour that’s a problem. However, at least they are now aware that they are giving off vibes of desperation, and can try and change that (giving them more self-confidence, because they now know that the problem isn’t something innate)
They get to feel morally superior to you.
Provided you are willing to explain why you find their conversation boring, this is helpful. Seriously, I’m friends with a lot of aspergics*, and every time I explain to one of them “you’re being boring, the problem is that you are doing X” they have henceforth put effort into avoiding doing X, which has increased their success in socialising.
*(I suspect this is because I’m a borderline case myself, and therefore often end up acting as a “translator” between them and NTs)
They don’t know why they were rejected; and likely find themselves wondering whether they’ll ever be able to be successful, making them feel increasingly desperate and despondent about their chances with each rejection.
While the first few rejecters may successfully prevent this by using “it’s not you it’s me” type lines, it will soon become clear to the rejectee that these are, in fact, often lies.
This one may not be as good as you think. Fat people are generally told repeatedly that they’re fat.
The risks of being fat are generally wildly overestimated.
I’ve read a moderate number of accounts by fat people who found that their romantic success improved when they stopped pre-rejecting themselves.
From experience: this can lead to resonant doubt/panic attacks. It kinda sucks.
Good point. It can result in a kill-or-cure situation, either they take it as “I can solve this” and gain confidence, or that they can’t, and lose even more.
There were a few articles here on the limited introspection humans in general have. I assume they have less so for others and also are not necessarily able to express their reasons well enough to be understood.
My guess is that Aspergers (or generally people with internalized nonstandard interaction modes) have the best chance to get useful information from people who are also off, but less so.
Questioning a person about why they feel a certain way about you is weird in its own regard. And there is no safe way to communicate about communication.
If they’re asking, it’s often not because they actually want to know, but as a way of telling the other person off for having the wrong opinion. Telling them puts everyone in an extremely uncomfortable position. If I wanted to pass on such information to someone, I’d do so anonymously.
All but one of those are things that people can change. The most difficult one to change (being tiny) is something which people can adjust in part by bulking up and also carrying themselves better. Frankly, speaking as a really tiny male homo sapiens (slightly under 5′2) , if I were to ask someone out and to find out that that was the primary issue I’d be a bit relieved that it wasn’t something else. On the other hand when I was told explicitly that people were not interested in me due to my height it has sometimes felt really awful. But it did cause me to focus more on people who were of below average height or not too tall and that seems to have lead to some success. So even that has been a general positive.
I’m sure you can find slightly nicer ways of saying atleast some of of the above. e.g. “I prefer people who are more physically fit” rather than “you are morbidly obese”.