Indeed, this is explicitly incompatible with my words as I have written them and it is bizarre that it has come up.
I’m saying that I can’t think of any reasons, including subconscious reasons, why I might want to do it harm. It seems compatible with your words that I have no conscious reasons but do have subconscious reasons.
I’m saying that I can’t think of any reasons, including subconscious reasons, why I might want to do it harm. It seems compatible with your words that I have no conscious reasons but do have subconscious reasons.
I suspect his point is that if you misunderstand the dynamics of the system, then you can both have the best motives and the worst consequences.
I suspect his point is that if you misunderstand the dynamics of the system, then you can both have the best motives and the worst consequences.
Or, far more likely, having the best motives and getting slightly bad consequences. Having the worst consequences is like getting 0 on a multiple-choice test or systematically losing to an efficient market. Potentially as hard as getting the best consequences and a rather impressive achievement in itself.
I honestly lost track of what you and wedrifid were arguing about way back when. It had something to do with whether “fictional” was a useful response to someone asking about how to categorize characters like the Joker when it comes to the specifics of their psychological quirks, IIRC, although I may be mistaking the salient disagreement for some other earlier disagreement (or perhaps a later one).
Somewhere along the line I got the impression that you believe wedrifid’s behavior drags down the general quality of discourse on the site (either on net, or relative to some level of positive contribution you think he would be capable of if he changed his behavior, I’m not sure which) by placing an undue emphasis on describing on-site social patterns in game-theoretical terms. I agree that wedrifid consistently does this but I don’t consider it a negative thing, personally.
[EDIT: To clarify, I agree that wedrifid consistently describes on-site social patterns in game-theoretical terms; I don’t agree with “undue emphasis”]
I do think he’s more abrupt and sometimes rude (in conventional social terms) in his treatment of some folks on this site than I’d prefer, and that a little more consistent kindness would make me more comfortable. Then again, I think the same thing of a lot of people, including most noticeably Eliezer; if the concern is that he’s acting as some kind of poor role model in so doing, I think that ship sailed with or without wedrifid.
I’m less clear on what wedrifid’s objection to your behavior is, exactly, or how he thinks it damages the site. I do think that Vaniver’s characterization of what his objection is is more accurate than your earlier one was.
[EDIT: Reading this comment, it seems one of the things he objects to is you opposing his opposition to engaging with Dmitry. For my own part, I think engaging with Dmitry was a net negative for the site. Whether opposing opposition to Dmitry is also a net negative, I don’t really know, but it’s certainly plausible.]
I realize this isn’t really an answer to your question, but it’s the mental model I’ve got, and since you seem rather insistent on getting some sort of input on this I figured I’d give you what I have. Feel free to ask followup questions if you like. (Or not.)
Then again, I think the same thing of a lot of people, including most noticeably Eliezer; if the concern is that he’s acting as some kind of poor role model in so doing, I think that ship sailed with or without wedrifid.
The difference between Eliezer and wedrifid is that wedrifid endorses his behavior much more strongly and frequently. With Eliezer, one might think it’s just a personality quirk, or an irrational behavioral tendency that’s an unfortunate side effect of having high status, and hence not worthy of imitation.
I do think that Vaniver’s characterization of what his objection is is more accurate than your earlier one was.
I didn’t mean to sound very confident (if I did) about my guess of his objection. My first guess was that he and I had a disagreement over how LW currently works, but then he said “I disagree with Wei Dai on all points in the parent” which made me update towards this alternative explanation, which he has also denied, so now I guess the reason is a disagreement over how LW works, but not the one that I specifically gave. (In case someone is wondering why I keep guessing instead of asking, it’s because I already asked and wedrifid didn’t want to answer, even privately.)
Feel free to ask followup questions if you like.
Thanks! What I’m most anxious to know at this point is whether I have some sort of misconception about the social dynamics on LW that causes me to consistently act in ways that are harmful to LW. Do you have any thoughts on that?
The difference between Eliezer and wedrifid is that wedrifid endorses his behavior much more strongly and frequently.
I certainly agree with you about frequently. I have to think more about strongly, but off hand I’m inclined to disagree. I would agree that wedrifid does it more explicitly, but that isn’t the same thing at all.
whether I have some sort of misconception about the social dynamics on LW that causes me to consistently act in ways that are harmful to LW. Do you have any thoughts on that?
Haven’t a clue. I’m not really sure what “harmful to LW” even means.
Perhaps unpacking that phrase is a place to start. What do you think harms the site? What do you think benefits it?
The difference needn’t lie in your motives, conscious or unconscious. You might simply have bad theories about how groups develop. (A possibility: your tendency to understate the role of social signaling in what sometimes pretends to be an objective search for truth.)
But your blindness to potential motives is also problematic—and not just because of the motives themselves, if they exist. For an example of a motive, you might have an anti-E.Y. motive because he hasn’t taken your ideas on the Singularity as seriously as you think they deserve—giving much more attention to a hack job from GiveWell.
Well, you wanted a possible example. There are always possible examples.
I’m saying that I can’t think of any reasons, including subconscious reasons, why I might want to do it harm. It seems compatible with your words that I have no conscious reasons but do have subconscious reasons.
Let it be known that I, Wedrifid, at this time and at this electronic location do declare that I do not believe that Wei Dai has conscious or unconscious motives to sabotage lesswrong. Indeed the thought is so bizarre and improbable that it was never even considered as a possibility by my search algorithm until Wei brought it up.
It really seems much more likely to me that Wei really did think that chastising those who tried to prevent the feeding of Dmytry was going to help the website rather than damage it. I also believe that Wei Dai declaring war on “Fictional” as a response to “What do you call the Joker?” is based on a true, sincere and evidently heartfelt belief that the world would be a better place without “fictional” (or analogous answers) as a reply in similar contexts.
Enemies are almost never innately evil. (Another probably necessary caveat: That word selection is merely a reference to a post that contains the relevant insight. Actual enemy status is not something to be granted so frivolously. Actively considering agents enemies rather than merely obstacles involves a potentially significant trade-off when it comes to optimization and resource allocation and so is best reserved for things that really matter.)
I’m saying that I can’t think of any reasons, including subconscious reasons, why I might want to do it harm. It seems compatible with your words that I have no conscious reasons but do have subconscious reasons.
I suspect his point is that if you misunderstand the dynamics of the system, then you can both have the best motives and the worst consequences.
Or, far more likely, having the best motives and getting slightly bad consequences. Having the worst consequences is like getting 0 on a multiple-choice test or systematically losing to an efficient market. Potentially as hard as getting the best consequences and a rather impressive achievement in itself.
Ok, so does anyone agree that he is right (that I misunderstand the dynamics of the system), and if so, tell me why?
(sigh) OK, my two cents.
I honestly lost track of what you and wedrifid were arguing about way back when. It had something to do with whether “fictional” was a useful response to someone asking about how to categorize characters like the Joker when it comes to the specifics of their psychological quirks, IIRC, although I may be mistaking the salient disagreement for some other earlier disagreement (or perhaps a later one).
Somewhere along the line I got the impression that you believe wedrifid’s behavior drags down the general quality of discourse on the site (either on net, or relative to some level of positive contribution you think he would be capable of if he changed his behavior, I’m not sure which) by placing an undue emphasis on describing on-site social patterns in game-theoretical terms. I agree that wedrifid consistently does this but I don’t consider it a negative thing, personally.
[EDIT: To clarify, I agree that wedrifid consistently describes on-site social patterns in game-theoretical terms; I don’t agree with “undue emphasis”]
I do think he’s more abrupt and sometimes rude (in conventional social terms) in his treatment of some folks on this site than I’d prefer, and that a little more consistent kindness would make me more comfortable. Then again, I think the same thing of a lot of people, including most noticeably Eliezer; if the concern is that he’s acting as some kind of poor role model in so doing, I think that ship sailed with or without wedrifid.
I’m less clear on what wedrifid’s objection to your behavior is, exactly, or how he thinks it damages the site. I do think that Vaniver’s characterization of what his objection is is more accurate than your earlier one was.
[EDIT: Reading this comment, it seems one of the things he objects to is you opposing his opposition to engaging with Dmitry. For my own part, I think engaging with Dmitry was a net negative for the site. Whether opposing opposition to Dmitry is also a net negative, I don’t really know, but it’s certainly plausible.]
I realize this isn’t really an answer to your question, but it’s the mental model I’ve got, and since you seem rather insistent on getting some sort of input on this I figured I’d give you what I have. Feel free to ask followup questions if you like. (Or not.)
The difference between Eliezer and wedrifid is that wedrifid endorses his behavior much more strongly and frequently. With Eliezer, one might think it’s just a personality quirk, or an irrational behavioral tendency that’s an unfortunate side effect of having high status, and hence not worthy of imitation.
I didn’t mean to sound very confident (if I did) about my guess of his objection. My first guess was that he and I had a disagreement over how LW currently works, but then he said “I disagree with Wei Dai on all points in the parent” which made me update towards this alternative explanation, which he has also denied, so now I guess the reason is a disagreement over how LW works, but not the one that I specifically gave. (In case someone is wondering why I keep guessing instead of asking, it’s because I already asked and wedrifid didn’t want to answer, even privately.)
Thanks! What I’m most anxious to know at this point is whether I have some sort of misconception about the social dynamics on LW that causes me to consistently act in ways that are harmful to LW. Do you have any thoughts on that?
I certainly agree with you about frequently. I have to think more about strongly, but off hand I’m inclined to disagree. I would agree that wedrifid does it more explicitly, but that isn’t the same thing at all.
Haven’t a clue. I’m not really sure what “harmful to LW” even means.
Perhaps unpacking that phrase is a place to start. What do you think harms the site? What do you think benefits it?
The difference needn’t lie in your motives, conscious or unconscious. You might simply have bad theories about how groups develop. (A possibility: your tendency to understate the role of social signaling in what sometimes pretends to be an objective search for truth.)
But your blindness to potential motives is also problematic—and not just because of the motives themselves, if they exist. For an example of a motive, you might have an anti-E.Y. motive because he hasn’t taken your ideas on the Singularity as seriously as you think they deserve—giving much more attention to a hack job from GiveWell.
Well, you wanted a possible example. There are always possible examples.
Let it be known that I, Wedrifid, at this time and at this electronic location do declare that I do not believe that Wei Dai has conscious or unconscious motives to sabotage lesswrong. Indeed the thought is so bizarre and improbable that it was never even considered as a possibility by my search algorithm until Wei brought it up.
It really seems much more likely to me that Wei really did think that chastising those who tried to prevent the feeding of Dmytry was going to help the website rather than damage it. I also believe that Wei Dai declaring war on “Fictional” as a response to “What do you call the Joker?” is based on a true, sincere and evidently heartfelt belief that the world would be a better place without “fictional” (or analogous answers) as a reply in similar contexts.
Enemies are almost never innately evil. (Another probably necessary caveat: That word selection is merely a reference to a post that contains the relevant insight. Actual enemy status is not something to be granted so frivolously. Actively considering agents enemies rather than merely obstacles involves a potentially significant trade-off when it comes to optimization and resource allocation and so is best reserved for things that really matter.)