Those were all helpful for problem solving, but I was trying to get at something a little different.
When your family or friends share real issues they have in their lives, haven’t you noticed that the solutions are obvious, but they don’t do them? When you bring up the solution, they see it, but change the subject as fast as they can. The next thing out of their mouths is “But …” The problem isn’t confusion or lack of knowledge. It’s denial. It’s evasion. It’s twisted motivation. They don’t need more rational techniques, they need an emotional technique to set their crazy aside and let the rationality they have out.
That’s what I was trying to get at on “the first issue” above. When you’re stuck on your problem, distancing yourself from the problem often helps distance unhelpful motivations from the problem.
In case it isn’t clear, I know my friends see the same thing in me, and I see it in myself as well.
Agree with observation, disagree with interpretation. I’ve tried the obvious solutions to various problems for a long time. It’s not “I know this would work but I don’t want to admit it and go do it.”. It’s “I know this obviously looks like it would work. I have no idea why this wouldn’t work. I expect everyone including myself to come up with that within five seconds of hearing the problem, and I can’t come up with an objection. Yet, when I try to do it, things that should happen just don’t. I have no clue why, it just fails silently.”. I still don’t understand the concept of a glass window, but at least I can learn that flying through it doesn’t work.
That happens sometimes too—everyone, including you, thinks they have the solution, and they’re wrong. “It’s so easy, just do blah blah blah.” Turns out blah blah blah didn’t work.
But are you sure you “did it”? Did you confirm that you actually did blah blah blah according to someone besides yourself? Did they witness you do it, or just get your report? Surely you could search the web and either find people confirming the same failure, or claiming that the solution did in fact work for them.
Another possible reason is that “everyone” is engaged in some kind of denial, disinterest, or dishonesty. Maybe they think they’re being “encouraging” with their solution. Maybe they don’t really care, and are tossing out the first thing that comes to mind. Maybe they have some of their own motivational perversity which makes them want to believe that the problem is easy.
You say you have no clue, but is it really impossible to find one? Have you tried all these avenues?
It always possible that everyone is just wrong—though in some cases that’s a tremendous opportunity to profit by what is right. But it sucks more to not even try the “known” solution out of some motivational perversity.
But are you sure you “did it”? Did you confirm that you actually did blah blah blah
No! That’s the problem. The failure is slippery. Often it happens somewhere in the deep dark recesses of my mind where grues do lurk. Sometimes it looks like it did and a year later it turns out to be due to an external circumstance. Sometimes it has a clear external cause, but shouldn’t I have planned for it and found a way to apply the solution anyway? It always fails in a way that leaves “You’re lazy and stupid. Try harder.” quite likely, until after several rounds of trying harder I’m just left saying “Okay, I may be lazy and stupid. But there’s no amount of trying that allows me to beat the laziness and stupidity, so I’m going to route around them.”.
Surely you could search the web and either find people confirming the same failure, or claiming that the solution did in fact work for them.
Another possible reason is that “everyone” is engaged in some kind of denial, disinterest, or dishonesty.
Their solutions are confirmed to work so often they’re obvious. The reasoning seems to be “Well, that would obviously work if there were no additional constraints, and I can’t see any additional constraints.”. But additional constraints exist, invisibly.
So the solution is confirmed, and it works for other people, but you’re failing to execute the solution as others do, and attribute the failure to laziness and stupidity.
First, I doubt that either are the issue. I looked at a bunch of your posts, and you’re what most people would call smart. You may be lazy, but I doubt it. I would guess that with a well defined problem that you care about and a clear path to completion, if you have no emotional angst associated with the problem, or otherwise consuming your attention, you can happily crank away at the problem all the live long day. Am I right?
I can call that lazy and stupid too, but I wouldn’t be using the terms in the same way most people do.
Your “additional constraints” and “laziness and stupidity” are sounding a lot like what I was calling “motivational perversity”.
Looking back, I guess I wasn’t clear. I didn’t mean to imply doing absolutely nothing, or even very little, even when I was talking about evasion. Because evasion is an activity in itself, and if you didn’t have the issue to deal with, you probably wouldn’t be engaging in the activity you use for evasion so much. The ways of not doing what you need to do can become compulsive activities in themselves. But even when you directly attack the problem, you do it ineffectively, often in ways that you know are ineffective. That looks a lot like lazy and stupid, but I don’t that really gets at the heart of the problem.
Well… either you’re laughably wrong, or you’re only right in the sense that your “if you have no emotional angst” conditional very rarely applies.
Your “additional constraints” and “laziness and stupidity” are sounding a lot like what I was calling “motivational perversity”.
Yes. I’m trying to explain motivational perversity. Your hypothesis seems to be “People evade stuff. If they said ‘okay, no more evading’ and tried really hard to do stuff that should work, stuff would work”. I call that “lazy and stupid”. My other hypothesis is “People try to do stuff, but invisible obstacle deflect them; it looks like they’re evading solutions, but actually it’s more like sliding off them”.
If I misunderstood and you don’t predict “no more evading ” will help, what is “motivational perversity” doing?
I certainly don’t expect that saying “no more evading” will generally work. The real perversity is that you know that you’re evading, but you’re still doing it anyway. Trying really hard to do stuff won’t necessarily work, even when actually doing the known right stuff will. You’re deviating from the known solution in some what that isn’t apparent to you.
Sliding off isn’t a bad way to put it. You start down the path, but find yourself diverted again and again off the path. Are you hitting obstacles, and taking the wrong path? Just not persevering? Did the will to execute wane? Did the will to evade wax?
I’ll give you some examples. Maybe you start bemoaning some injustice in the situation. Or obsessing over what might happen. Or going into speculative analysis cycles. Or optimization cycles. Or you’re leaving some step out because it “shouldn’t” matter, whether the shouldn’t is epistemic or moral.
Okay, but then what to do about it? “Motivational perversity” seems to be doing useful predictive work—namely, that “try harder” is a good solution. If our best description is “people fail to do stuff despite trying really really hard, and we don’t really know why”—what are we even doing placing the source of the failure in “motivation” rather than “executive function” or “modelling and planning” or “sharing control between conscious and subconscious modules” or even “executing motor actions”?
Hmmm, it’s been a while, but someone pointed me here again, so here goes.
I placed it on motivation because the modeling and planning is easy, if the problem isn’t yours.
What to do about it? Talk to someone else. I went to counseling for a year. One of the mistakes I made, and the counselor made, was never just having him suggest a solution. He’s all busy “not directing” me, when in fact what I needed was perspective. Going round and round in my head wasn’t getting anywhere.
Eventually I think I found some of my motivational perversion, some of my unacknowledged beliefs and choices that explained my bad behavior.
Related links:
http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/kbnli/why_rubber_duck_debugging_works_we_cant_test_our/
http://lesswrong.com/lw/37k/rationality_quotes_december_2010/37yv
I liked the link to Kernighan:
http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8yzkq/rubber_duck_debugging_wikipedia/
Those were all helpful for problem solving, but I was trying to get at something a little different.
When your family or friends share real issues they have in their lives, haven’t you noticed that the solutions are obvious, but they don’t do them? When you bring up the solution, they see it, but change the subject as fast as they can. The next thing out of their mouths is “But …” The problem isn’t confusion or lack of knowledge. It’s denial. It’s evasion. It’s twisted motivation. They don’t need more rational techniques, they need an emotional technique to set their crazy aside and let the rationality they have out.
That’s what I was trying to get at on “the first issue” above. When you’re stuck on your problem, distancing yourself from the problem often helps distance unhelpful motivations from the problem.
In case it isn’t clear, I know my friends see the same thing in me, and I see it in myself as well.
Agree with observation, disagree with interpretation. I’ve tried the obvious solutions to various problems for a long time. It’s not “I know this would work but I don’t want to admit it and go do it.”. It’s “I know this obviously looks like it would work. I have no idea why this wouldn’t work. I expect everyone including myself to come up with that within five seconds of hearing the problem, and I can’t come up with an objection. Yet, when I try to do it, things that should happen just don’t. I have no clue why, it just fails silently.”. I still don’t understand the concept of a glass window, but at least I can learn that flying through it doesn’t work.
That happens sometimes too—everyone, including you, thinks they have the solution, and they’re wrong. “It’s so easy, just do blah blah blah.” Turns out blah blah blah didn’t work.
But are you sure you “did it”? Did you confirm that you actually did blah blah blah according to someone besides yourself? Did they witness you do it, or just get your report? Surely you could search the web and either find people confirming the same failure, or claiming that the solution did in fact work for them.
Another possible reason is that “everyone” is engaged in some kind of denial, disinterest, or dishonesty. Maybe they think they’re being “encouraging” with their solution. Maybe they don’t really care, and are tossing out the first thing that comes to mind. Maybe they have some of their own motivational perversity which makes them want to believe that the problem is easy.
You say you have no clue, but is it really impossible to find one? Have you tried all these avenues?
It always possible that everyone is just wrong—though in some cases that’s a tremendous opportunity to profit by what is right. But it sucks more to not even try the “known” solution out of some motivational perversity.
No! That’s the problem. The failure is slippery. Often it happens somewhere in the deep dark recesses of my mind where grues do lurk. Sometimes it looks like it did and a year later it turns out to be due to an external circumstance. Sometimes it has a clear external cause, but shouldn’t I have planned for it and found a way to apply the solution anyway? It always fails in a way that leaves “You’re lazy and stupid. Try harder.” quite likely, until after several rounds of trying harder I’m just left saying “Okay, I may be lazy and stupid. But there’s no amount of trying that allows me to beat the laziness and stupidity, so I’m going to route around them.”.
Their solutions are confirmed to work so often they’re obvious. The reasoning seems to be “Well, that would obviously work if there were no additional constraints, and I can’t see any additional constraints.”. But additional constraints exist, invisibly.
So the solution is confirmed, and it works for other people, but you’re failing to execute the solution as others do, and attribute the failure to laziness and stupidity.
First, I doubt that either are the issue. I looked at a bunch of your posts, and you’re what most people would call smart. You may be lazy, but I doubt it. I would guess that with a well defined problem that you care about and a clear path to completion, if you have no emotional angst associated with the problem, or otherwise consuming your attention, you can happily crank away at the problem all the live long day. Am I right?
I can call that lazy and stupid too, but I wouldn’t be using the terms in the same way most people do.
Your “additional constraints” and “laziness and stupidity” are sounding a lot like what I was calling “motivational perversity”.
Looking back, I guess I wasn’t clear. I didn’t mean to imply doing absolutely nothing, or even very little, even when I was talking about evasion. Because evasion is an activity in itself, and if you didn’t have the issue to deal with, you probably wouldn’t be engaging in the activity you use for evasion so much. The ways of not doing what you need to do can become compulsive activities in themselves. But even when you directly attack the problem, you do it ineffectively, often in ways that you know are ineffective. That looks a lot like lazy and stupid, but I don’t that really gets at the heart of the problem.
Well… either you’re laughably wrong, or you’re only right in the sense that your “if you have no emotional angst” conditional very rarely applies.
Yes. I’m trying to explain motivational perversity. Your hypothesis seems to be “People evade stuff. If they said ‘okay, no more evading’ and tried really hard to do stuff that should work, stuff would work”. I call that “lazy and stupid”. My other hypothesis is “People try to do stuff, but invisible obstacle deflect them; it looks like they’re evading solutions, but actually it’s more like sliding off them”.
If I misunderstood and you don’t predict “no more evading ” will help, what is “motivational perversity” doing?
I certainly don’t expect that saying “no more evading” will generally work. The real perversity is that you know that you’re evading, but you’re still doing it anyway. Trying really hard to do stuff won’t necessarily work, even when actually doing the known right stuff will. You’re deviating from the known solution in some what that isn’t apparent to you.
Sliding off isn’t a bad way to put it. You start down the path, but find yourself diverted again and again off the path. Are you hitting obstacles, and taking the wrong path? Just not persevering? Did the will to execute wane? Did the will to evade wax?
I’ll give you some examples. Maybe you start bemoaning some injustice in the situation. Or obsessing over what might happen. Or going into speculative analysis cycles. Or optimization cycles. Or you’re leaving some step out because it “shouldn’t” matter, whether the shouldn’t is epistemic or moral.
Okay, but then what to do about it? “Motivational perversity” seems to be doing useful predictive work—namely, that “try harder” is a good solution. If our best description is “people fail to do stuff despite trying really really hard, and we don’t really know why”—what are we even doing placing the source of the failure in “motivation” rather than “executive function” or “modelling and planning” or “sharing control between conscious and subconscious modules” or even “executing motor actions”?
Hmmm, it’s been a while, but someone pointed me here again, so here goes.
I placed it on motivation because the modeling and planning is easy, if the problem isn’t yours.
What to do about it? Talk to someone else. I went to counseling for a year. One of the mistakes I made, and the counselor made, was never just having him suggest a solution. He’s all busy “not directing” me, when in fact what I needed was perspective. Going round and round in my head wasn’t getting anywhere.
Eventually I think I found some of my motivational perversion, some of my unacknowledged beliefs and choices that explained my bad behavior.