My answers from introspection would say things like, “All my values are implicit, explicit labels are just me attempting to name a feeling. The ground truth is the feeling.”
“Some have been with me for as long as I can remember, others seem to have developed over time, some changed over time.”
My answers from neuroscience would be shaped like, “Well, we have these basic drives from our hypothalamus, brainstem, basal ganglia… and then our cortex tries to understand and predict these drives, and drives can change over time (esp w puberty for instance). If we were to break down where a value comes from it would have to be from some combination of these basic drives, cortical tendencies (e.g. vulnerability to optical illusions), and learned behavior.”
“Genetics are responsible for a fetus developing a brain in the first place, and set a lot of parameters in our neural networks that can last a lifetime. Obviously, genetics has a large role to play in what values we start with and what values we develop over time.”
My answers from reasoning about it abstractly would be something like, “If I could poll a lot of people at a lot of different ages, and analyze their introspective reports and their environmental circumstances and their life histories, then I could do analysis on what things change and what things stay the same.”
“We can get clues about the difference between a value and an instrumental goal by telling people to consider a hypothetical scenario in which a fact X was true that isn’t true in their current lives, and see how this changes their expectation of what their instrumental goals would be in that scenario. For example, when imagining a world where circumstances have changed such that money is no longer a valued economic token, I anticipate that I would have no desire for money in that world. Thus, I can infer that money is an instrumental goal.”
Overall, I really feel uncertain about the truth of the matter and the validity of each of these ways of measuring. I think understanding values vs instrumental goals is important work that needs doing, and I think we need to consider all these paths to understanding unless we figure out a way to rule some out.
If we were to break down where a value comes from it would have to be from some combination of these basic drives, cortical tendencies (e.g. vulnerability to optical illusions), and learned behavior.
I wouldn’t want to say this is false, but I’d want to say that speaking like this is a red flag that we haven’t understood what values are in the appropriate basis. We can name some dimensions (the ones you list, and others), but then our values are rotated with respect to this basis; our values are some vector that cuts across these basis vectors. We lack the relevant concepts. When you say that you experience “the underlying drivers behind your goals” as being constant, I’m skeptical, not because I don’t think there’s something that’s fairly fixed, but because we lack the concepts to describe that fixed thing, and so it’s hard to see how you could have a clear experience of the fixedness. At most you could have a vague sense that perhaps there is something fixed. And if so, then I’d want to take that sense as a pointer toward the as-yet not understood ideas.
Yes, I think I’d go with the description: ‘vague sense that there is something fixed, and a lived experience that says that if not completely fixed then certainly slow moving.’
and I absolutely agree that understanding on this is lacking.
These are indeed the important questions!
My answers from introspection would say things like, “All my values are implicit, explicit labels are just me attempting to name a feeling. The ground truth is the feeling.”
“Some have been with me for as long as I can remember, others seem to have developed over time, some changed over time.”
My answers from neuroscience would be shaped like, “Well, we have these basic drives from our hypothalamus, brainstem, basal ganglia… and then our cortex tries to understand and predict these drives, and drives can change over time (esp w puberty for instance). If we were to break down where a value comes from it would have to be from some combination of these basic drives, cortical tendencies (e.g. vulnerability to optical illusions), and learned behavior.”
“Genetics are responsible for a fetus developing a brain in the first place, and set a lot of parameters in our neural networks that can last a lifetime. Obviously, genetics has a large role to play in what values we start with and what values we develop over time.”
My answers from reasoning about it abstractly would be something like, “If I could poll a lot of people at a lot of different ages, and analyze their introspective reports and their environmental circumstances and their life histories, then I could do analysis on what things change and what things stay the same.”
“We can get clues about the difference between a value and an instrumental goal by telling people to consider a hypothetical scenario in which a fact X was true that isn’t true in their current lives, and see how this changes their expectation of what their instrumental goals would be in that scenario. For example, when imagining a world where circumstances have changed such that money is no longer a valued economic token, I anticipate that I would have no desire for money in that world. Thus, I can infer that money is an instrumental goal.”
Overall, I really feel uncertain about the truth of the matter and the validity of each of these ways of measuring. I think understanding values vs instrumental goals is important work that needs doing, and I think we need to consider all these paths to understanding unless we figure out a way to rule some out.
I wouldn’t want to say this is false, but I’d want to say that speaking like this is a red flag that we haven’t understood what values are in the appropriate basis. We can name some dimensions (the ones you list, and others), but then our values are rotated with respect to this basis; our values are some vector that cuts across these basis vectors. We lack the relevant concepts. When you say that you experience “the underlying drivers behind your goals” as being constant, I’m skeptical, not because I don’t think there’s something that’s fairly fixed, but because we lack the concepts to describe that fixed thing, and so it’s hard to see how you could have a clear experience of the fixedness. At most you could have a vague sense that perhaps there is something fixed. And if so, then I’d want to take that sense as a pointer toward the as-yet not understood ideas.
Yes, I think I’d go with the description: ‘vague sense that there is something fixed, and a lived experience that says that if not completely fixed then certainly slow moving.’
and I absolutely agree that understanding on this is lacking.
Can you elaborate? (I don’t have a specific question, just double-clicking, asking for more detail or rephrasing that uses other concepts.)