A man turned to a young woman near him and asked, “So, do you actually read Less Wrong, or did someone drag you here?” I asked, “Are you saying that because she’s wearing heels and lipstick?” “No, no,” he answered, flustered. “It’s not because of how she’s dressed. It’s just that most of the women who come here are dragged by someone else.” I asked, “Do you think that any woman, no matter why she came here, would feel welcomed by being asked that question?” At that point he began apologizing, and the other woman assured him she wasn’t offended.
I could say that and mean that as a compliment.… (of course I wouldn’t be going to a LW meetup)
I get the sense that “complimenting” someone by saying that they’re too good for their social circle is generally not a good idea. If nothing else, it’s insulting their judgment!
“Mimi, I’m surprised A bright and charming girl like you Hangs out with these … slackers”
“If that’s what you think of this life, then you can’t think much of them that choose it, can you?”
I get the sense that “complimenting” someone by saying that they’re too good for their social circle is generally not a good idea. If nothing else, it’s insulting their judgment!
People go places for reasons other than judgement (such as availability), so no. Especially as you too are there. Rest of the city can be just as bad.
edit: and of course, wording matters a lot (and needless to say, tone of the voice, etc etc, even more). “What a flower like you is doing in a swamp like this?” is risky and cheesy but is likely to be met with good humour, especially if its not 100% clear what you mean. If you start using “I” like “I am surprised”, that begins to sounds weird and you assert yourself some sorta authority on who should hang out where.
Well, yes, reasonably so—I wouldn’t be attending a meetup. I just find it amusing because the wording is what I’d often hear used in the opposite meaning—at a low status party, you ask this to someone as a compliment, like, they aren’t that low status then why they’re here? Must have been dragged in by an awfully low status boyfriend (the point is to make a joke at her existing boyfriend’s expense and see the reaction). Of course, in the context of e.g. science museum, that’d have entirely different meaning and is indeed awful.
edit: To explain.
In the context of a meetup, it’s a classical insecure, low status move. The guy feels need to assert that LW is awesome and above what women can understand, which is what is done mostly when there’s nothing really awesome and everyone involved knows that at some level. You’d not hear that sort of thing often at some sort of cool, tech related gathering which is high status and no one needs to assert anything.
Well, yeah, I’d have to say on the second thought that programmers are comparatively uncultured, especially in the west (the gender ratio in technical subjects in the west is absolutely ridiculous). I’m from eastern europe, gender ratio is not awesome here but not that skewed either, or at least, used to not be skewed so much. I do think though you’d hear that way less often on more classy of the conferences.
In that case, perhaps you should keep this post in mind if you’re ever considering whether you should say that when you intend to give a compliment. It may not be an effective way to convey your positive regard.
It may not be an effective way to convey your positive regard.
Intonation matters. A guy dragged to a meet-up and hating it could make it sound like “do you actually read this loser crap or did someone drag you here?”, because he is only interested in her conditionally on her not being into the loser crap. I find it amusing because on the immediate reading I pictured a guy dragged onto meet-up trying to make a stab at her boyfriend for dragging her there, and then I was, oh, he was just being misogynistic for no good reason. (And even that is still maybe, because it’s OP’s account of it and OP is third party. Maybe he was clumsily trying to be self depreciating about the whole meetup thing)
because it’s OP’s account of it and OP is third party
Yes. I think it was impolite of her to reply to something she had overheard, without knowing anything about the interactions between those two people. For all she knew, there might have been mutual knowledge among the two of them that he was in jest.
EDIT: Retracted. On reading the OP again, it seems that she already knew the woman and was reasonably sure that the man hadn’t previously met her, so the above doesn’t apply.
I could say that and mean that as a compliment.… (of course I wouldn’t be going to a LW meetup)
I get the sense that “complimenting” someone by saying that they’re too good for their social circle is generally not a good idea. If nothing else, it’s insulting their judgment!
“Mimi, I’m surprised
A bright and charming girl like you
Hangs out with these … slackers”
“If that’s what you think of this life, then you can’t think much of them that choose it, can you?”
People go places for reasons other than judgement (such as availability), so no. Especially as you too are there. Rest of the city can be just as bad.
edit: and of course, wording matters a lot (and needless to say, tone of the voice, etc etc, even more). “What a flower like you is doing in a swamp like this?” is risky and cheesy but is likely to be met with good humour, especially if its not 100% clear what you mean. If you start using “I” like “I am surprised”, that begins to sounds weird and you assert yourself some sorta authority on who should hang out where.
Upvoted for quoting Rent!
(and also the substance of your post)
You got the Rent quote, and not the Firefly one? What’re you doing in a place like this? [/irony]
Does that matter? The post is arguing that it’s unlikely to be taken as a compliment.
Evidence? The target of the statement didn’t take it as an insult, some random bystander did.
The target of the statement politely said that she didn’t take it as an insult.
Well, yes, reasonably so—I wouldn’t be attending a meetup. I just find it amusing because the wording is what I’d often hear used in the opposite meaning—at a low status party, you ask this to someone as a compliment, like, they aren’t that low status then why they’re here? Must have been dragged in by an awfully low status boyfriend (the point is to make a joke at her existing boyfriend’s expense and see the reaction). Of course, in the context of e.g. science museum, that’d have entirely different meaning and is indeed awful.
edit: To explain. In the context of a meetup, it’s a classical insecure, low status move. The guy feels need to assert that LW is awesome and above what women can understand, which is what is done mostly when there’s nothing really awesome and everyone involved knows that at some level. You’d not hear that sort of thing often at some sort of cool, tech related gathering which is high status and no one needs to assert anything.
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Here_with_my_boyfriend
Well, yeah, I’d have to say on the second thought that programmers are comparatively uncultured, especially in the west (the gender ratio in technical subjects in the west is absolutely ridiculous). I’m from eastern europe, gender ratio is not awesome here but not that skewed either, or at least, used to not be skewed so much. I do think though you’d hear that way less often on more classy of the conferences.
In that case, perhaps you should keep this post in mind if you’re ever considering whether you should say that when you intend to give a compliment. It may not be an effective way to convey your positive regard.
Intonation matters. A guy dragged to a meet-up and hating it could make it sound like “do you actually read this loser crap or did someone drag you here?”, because he is only interested in her conditionally on her not being into the loser crap. I find it amusing because on the immediate reading I pictured a guy dragged onto meet-up trying to make a stab at her boyfriend for dragging her there, and then I was, oh, he was just being misogynistic for no good reason. (And even that is still maybe, because it’s OP’s account of it and OP is third party. Maybe he was clumsily trying to be self depreciating about the whole meetup thing)
Yes. I think it was impolite of her to reply to something she had overheard, without knowing anything about the interactions between those two people. For all she knew, there might have been mutual knowledge among the two of them that he was in jest.
EDIT: Retracted. On reading the OP again, it seems that she already knew the woman and was reasonably sure that the man hadn’t previously met her, so the above doesn’t apply.