What’s missing in this discussion is why one is talking to the “bad faith” actor in the first place.
If you’re trying to get some information and the “bad faith” actor is trying to deceive you, you walk away. That is, unless you’re sure that you’re much smarter or have some other information advantage that allows you to get new useful information regardless. The latter case is extremely rare.
If you’re trying to convince the “bad faith” actor, you either walk away or transform the discussion into a negotiation (it arguably was a negotiation in the first place). The post is relevant for this case. In such situations, people often pretend to be having an object level discussion although all parties know it’s a negotiation. This is interesting.
Even more interesting, Politics: you’re trying to convince an amateur audience that you’re right and someone else is wrong. The other party will almost always act “in bad faith” because otherwise the discussion would be taking place without an audience. You can walk away while accusing the other party of bad faith but the audience can’t really tell if you were “just about to loose the argument” or if you were arguing “less in bad faith than the other party”, perhaps because the other party is losing the argument. Crucially, given that both parties are compelled to argue in bad faith, the audience is to some extent justified in not being moved by any object level arguments since they mostly cannot check if they’re valid. They keep to the opinions they have been holding and the opinions of people they trust.
In this case, it might be worth it to move from the above situation, where the object level being discussed isn’t the real object-level issue, as in the bird example, to one where a negotiation is taking place that is transparent to the audience. However, this is only possible if there is a competent fourth party arbitrating, as the competing parties really cannot give up the advantage of “bad faith”. That’s quite rare.
An upside: If the audience is actually interested in the truth, however, and if it can overcome the tribal drive to flock to “their side”, they can maybe force the arguing parties to focus on the real issue and make object-level arguments in such a way that the audience can become competent enough to judge the arguments.Doing this is a huge investment of time and resources. It may be helped by all parties acknowledging the “bad faith” aspect of the situation and enforcing social norms that address it. This is what “debate culture” is supposed to do but as far as I know never really has.
My takeaway: don’t be too proud of your debate culture where everyone is “arguing in good faith”, if it’s just about learning about the word. This is great, of course, but doesn’t really solve the important problems.
Instead, try to come up with a debate culture (debate systems?) that can actually transform a besides-the-point bad-faith apparent disagreement into a negotiation where the parties involved can afford to make their true positions explicitly known. This is very hard but we shouldn’t give up. For example, some of the software used to modernize democracy in Taiwan seems like an interesting direction to explore.
Besides thinking it fascinating and perhaps groundbreaking, I don’t really have original insights to offer. The most interesting democracies on the planet in my opinion are Switzerland and Taiwan. Switzerland shows what a long and sustained cultural development can do. Taiwan shows the potential for reform from within and innovation.
Do you have something to share about Taiwan if you don’t try to keep the links within LW? (Oh, I now noticed the first link is actually a link to podcast. But still, if you have something more to share I’d be interested. It’s the second time I saw Taiwan’s digital democratic tools mentioned on LW recently)
What’s missing in this discussion is why one is talking to the “bad faith” actor in the first place.
If you’re trying to get some information and the “bad faith” actor is trying to deceive you, you walk away. That is, unless you’re sure that you’re much smarter or have some other information advantage that allows you to get new useful information regardless. The latter case is extremely rare.
If you’re trying to convince the “bad faith” actor, you either walk away or transform the discussion into a negotiation (it arguably was a negotiation in the first place). The post is relevant for this case. In such situations, people often pretend to be having an object level discussion although all parties know it’s a negotiation. This is interesting.
Even more interesting, Politics: you’re trying to convince an amateur audience that you’re right and someone else is wrong. The other party will almost always act “in bad faith” because otherwise the discussion would be taking place without an audience. You can walk away while accusing the other party of bad faith but the audience can’t really tell if you were “just about to loose the argument” or if you were arguing “less in bad faith than the other party”, perhaps because the other party is losing the argument. Crucially, given that both parties are compelled to argue in bad faith, the audience is to some extent justified in not being moved by any object level arguments since they mostly cannot check if they’re valid. They keep to the opinions they have been holding and the opinions of people they trust.
In this case, it might be worth it to move from the above situation, where the object level being discussed isn’t the real object-level issue, as in the bird example, to one where a negotiation is taking place that is transparent to the audience. However, this is only possible if there is a competent fourth party arbitrating, as the competing parties really cannot give up the advantage of “bad faith”. That’s quite rare.
An upside: If the audience is actually interested in the truth, however, and if it can overcome the tribal drive to flock to “their side”, they can maybe force the arguing parties to focus on the real issue and make object-level arguments in such a way that the audience can become competent enough to judge the arguments.Doing this is a huge investment of time and resources. It may be helped by all parties acknowledging the “bad faith” aspect of the situation and enforcing social norms that address it. This is what “debate culture” is supposed to do but as far as I know never really has.
My takeaway: don’t be too proud of your debate culture where everyone is “arguing in good faith”, if it’s just about learning about the word. This is great, of course, but doesn’t really solve the important problems.
Instead, try to come up with a debate culture (debate systems?) that can actually transform a besides-the-point bad-faith apparent disagreement into a negotiation where the parties involved can afford to make their true positions explicitly known. This is very hard but we shouldn’t give up. For example, some of the software used to modernize democracy in Taiwan seems like an interesting direction to explore.
Can you say more about this?
Besides thinking it fascinating and perhaps groundbreaking, I don’t really have original insights to offer. The most interesting democracies on the planet in my opinion are Switzerland and Taiwan. Switzerland shows what a long and sustained cultural development can do. Taiwan shows the potential for reform from within and innovation.
There’s a lot of material to read, in particular the events after the sunflower movement in Taiwan. Keeping links within lesswrong: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/5jW3hzvX5Q5X4ZXyd/link-digital-democracy-is-within-reach and https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/x6hpkYyzMG6Bf8T3W/swiss-political-system-more-than-you-ever-wanted-to-know-i
Do you have something to share about Taiwan if you don’t try to keep the links within LW? (Oh, I now noticed the first link is actually a link to podcast. But still, if you have something more to share I’d be interested. It’s the second time I saw Taiwan’s digital democratic tools mentioned on LW recently)