I once talked to a LessWronger who said that he had basically no problems with akrasia, because his image of himself as someone who “had his shit together” prevented him from doing things he knew to be stupid. Unfortunately, I don’t have my shit together enough to implement this myself.
Johnny says, “I’ve got no problems staying motivated. My self-image is wonderful; I am immaculately and voraciously productive… I. am. Productivity Man!”
Sally says, “I’m a slug. I think I’m getting only a small fraction of production out of my potential...”
Johnny lives in his rich parents’ basement, works overnights in a laundromat & has earned several dozen trophies on his PS3.
Sally is a Nobel Prize winner. (...and owns a nationwide chain of dry cleaning stores)
...
An accurate view of your objective output can be valuable. A deluded identity can keep you from improving—it can keep you from even recognizing you need improvement.
I once talked to a LessWronger who said that he had basically no problems with akrasia,
Did this LWer accurately assess his own 100% defeat of akrasia? (“No problems?” Like, ever?)
because his image of himself as someone who “had his shit together” prevented him from doing things he knew to be stupid.
Was he actually avoiding objectively stupid things? Or just things he deemed as stupid as the self-reported Conquerer of Akrasia? Did he really have “his shit together”? Or is it possible he was mistaken? Perhaps he was a bit blinded by his biased self-image? (I mean, he never experiences even mild akrasia? Is he a robot?)
Unfortunately, I don’t have my shit together enough to implement this myself.
Are you sure your shit isn’t together? Compared to whom? Is it possible you have generated your identity, in part, as a comparison to those who you’ve been led to believe are better than you when, in fact, their self-reported self-image is not an accurate representation of reality? Because of this, is it possible you aren’t giving yourself enough credit? And would it then follow that your actions might be constrained by your inaccurately low self-image?
...
I’ve met people who think they are awesome who actually kinda suck. And vice versa.
An accurate view of your objective output (productivity, etc.) can be valuable. A deluded identity can keep you from improving—it can keep you from even recognizing you need improvement.
Good point. I’ve had months of my life which felt like I had no akrasia, because I didn’t care. The moment I thought to myself “I really need to get this [project that will take a ton of work] done”, it feels like I’m some ridiculous non-agent who can’t make decisions, trapped, unable to remove my hands from the keys, unable to stop reading Reddit, unable to go to sleep so I can wake up early.
I’ve met a thousand people who say they have no motivation issues, but then I notice they’re not exactly doing much in their life that causes akrasia problems. Akrasia is a misfiring of our hardware that happens when you try to do certain tasks; if you don’t do those tasks then you’ve got no akrasia. Doesn’t mean you’re very productive.
I’m reminded of a time when I felt like I had overcome procrastination. Kind of. It still didn’t mean that I would have done everything right away: it just meant that when I was putting off something, I was able to do so without feeling constantly guilty about it. I didn’t get any more done, but I don’t think I got any less done either, and I did feel happier.
You seem to be directing questions at me, yet you posted this comment as a reply to someone else. Had I not checked back in this thread to bask in the pale green glow of my upvote count, I would never have found your post.
Did this LWer accurately assess his own 100% defeat of akrasia? (“No problems?” Like, ever?)
I don’t remember asking him and getting a clear answer. The lack of that memory may mean I didn’t think to ask, it may mean that someone else took the “floor” (so to speak (heh)) and I didn’t get to ask it, or it may be that he answered and it wasn’t clear to me what he meant. I doubt he thought he eliminated 100% of all small akrasia-produced problems.
Was he actually avoiding objectively stupid things? Or just things he deemed as stupid as the self-reported Conquerer of Akrasia? Did he really have “his shit together”? Or is it possible he was mistaken? Perhaps he was a bit blinded by his biased self-image? (I mean, he never experiences even mild akrasia? Is he a robot?)
I don’t know him well enough to say. He talked about inflicting sleep deprivation (3 hours per night) on himself as a byproduct of trying to get more time to work, for an extended period of time (I don’t remember what he said, but I think at least a month) (It was part of a warning against doing that, he said his productivity was drastically decreased so much it wasn’t nearly worth it). I also know he worked in what I believe is a highly-paid profession. I think his shit-togetherness was higher than average.
Are you sure your shit isn’t together? Compared to whom? Is it possible you have generated your identity, in part, as a comparison to those who you’ve been led to believe are better than you when, in fact, their self-reported self-image is not an accurate representation of reality? Because of this, is it possible you aren’t giving yourself enough credit? And would it then follow that your actions might be constrained by your inaccurately low self-image?
I didn’t say my shit wasn’t together, I said my shit wasn’t together enough to build an identity that keeps me from doing stupid things out of akrasia.
There is a lot more to productivity than hard work/resistance to akrasia. I don’t believe that I suck, or even that I am below average, or even below average in akrasia resistance specifically. Most of the “normal people” I know (people I know for reasons unrelated to their akrasia resistance, intelligence, epistemic rationality, strategy, or knowledge) are pretty impressed with my work ethic, my shit-togetherness, and probably by extension my akrasia resistance in general (though I don’t have as direct evidence about their opinions on this).
Among akrasia resistance, intelligence, epistemic rationality, strategy, and knowledge, I think it is nonetheless akrasia resistance that holds me back the most.
An accurate view of your objective output (productivity, etc.) can be valuable. A deluded identity can keep you from improving—it can keep you from even recognizing you need improvement.
I doubt there are many people on LessWrong who believe that the advantages of delusion in self-image outweigh the detriments. I am not one of them.
It’s Bryan. I’ve seen him at some DC meetups so you might know him. If not, he made contact information available to other Boston Megameetup attendees in the survey.
Are you thinking of Ken? You could ask him how he implemented that. He’s been valuable when I asked him for advice on other topics, and seems to enjoy helping people.
Thanks for the prod about trying to get this to work, by the way. I’ve been planning to once I get back to school, and having my shit together (to a much higher degree than for full time work) is basically a requirement (and one I’ve met in past school years, though summer makes me soft).
I once talked to a LessWronger who said that he had basically no problems with akrasia, because his image of himself as someone who “had his shit together” prevented him from doing things he knew to be stupid. Unfortunately, I don’t have my shit together enough to implement this myself.
Johnny says, “I’ve got no problems staying motivated. My self-image is wonderful; I am immaculately and voraciously productive… I. am. Productivity Man!”
Sally says, “I’m a slug. I think I’m getting only a small fraction of production out of my potential...”
Johnny lives in his rich parents’ basement, works overnights in a laundromat & has earned several dozen trophies on his PS3.
Sally is a Nobel Prize winner. (...and owns a nationwide chain of dry cleaning stores)
...
An accurate view of your objective output can be valuable. A deluded identity can keep you from improving—it can keep you from even recognizing you need improvement.
I notice I am confused.
Did this LWer accurately assess his own 100% defeat of akrasia? (“No problems?” Like, ever?)
Was he actually avoiding objectively stupid things? Or just things he deemed as stupid as the self-reported Conquerer of Akrasia? Did he really have “his shit together”? Or is it possible he was mistaken? Perhaps he was a bit blinded by his biased self-image? (I mean, he never experiences even mild akrasia? Is he a robot?)
Are you sure your shit isn’t together? Compared to whom? Is it possible you have generated your identity, in part, as a comparison to those who you’ve been led to believe are better than you when, in fact, their self-reported self-image is not an accurate representation of reality? Because of this, is it possible you aren’t giving yourself enough credit? And would it then follow that your actions might be constrained by your inaccurately low self-image?
...
I’ve met people who think they are awesome who actually kinda suck. And vice versa.
An accurate view of your objective output (productivity, etc.) can be valuable. A deluded identity can keep you from improving—it can keep you from even recognizing you need improvement.
Good point. I’ve had months of my life which felt like I had no akrasia, because I didn’t care. The moment I thought to myself “I really need to get this [project that will take a ton of work] done”, it feels like I’m some ridiculous non-agent who can’t make decisions, trapped, unable to remove my hands from the keys, unable to stop reading Reddit, unable to go to sleep so I can wake up early.
I’ve met a thousand people who say they have no motivation issues, but then I notice they’re not exactly doing much in their life that causes akrasia problems. Akrasia is a misfiring of our hardware that happens when you try to do certain tasks; if you don’t do those tasks then you’ve got no akrasia. Doesn’t mean you’re very productive.
I’m reminded of a time when I felt like I had overcome procrastination. Kind of. It still didn’t mean that I would have done everything right away: it just meant that when I was putting off something, I was able to do so without feeling constantly guilty about it. I didn’t get any more done, but I don’t think I got any less done either, and I did feel happier.
You seem to be directing questions at me, yet you posted this comment as a reply to someone else. Had I not checked back in this thread to bask in the pale green glow of my upvote count, I would never have found your post.
I don’t remember asking him and getting a clear answer. The lack of that memory may mean I didn’t think to ask, it may mean that someone else took the “floor” (so to speak (heh)) and I didn’t get to ask it, or it may be that he answered and it wasn’t clear to me what he meant. I doubt he thought he eliminated 100% of all small akrasia-produced problems.
I don’t know him well enough to say. He talked about inflicting sleep deprivation (3 hours per night) on himself as a byproduct of trying to get more time to work, for an extended period of time (I don’t remember what he said, but I think at least a month) (It was part of a warning against doing that, he said his productivity was drastically decreased so much it wasn’t nearly worth it). I also know he worked in what I believe is a highly-paid profession. I think his shit-togetherness was higher than average.
I didn’t say my shit wasn’t together, I said my shit wasn’t together enough to build an identity that keeps me from doing stupid things out of akrasia.
There is a lot more to productivity than hard work/resistance to akrasia. I don’t believe that I suck, or even that I am below average, or even below average in akrasia resistance specifically. Most of the “normal people” I know (people I know for reasons unrelated to their akrasia resistance, intelligence, epistemic rationality, strategy, or knowledge) are pretty impressed with my work ethic, my shit-togetherness, and probably by extension my akrasia resistance in general (though I don’t have as direct evidence about their opinions on this).
Among akrasia resistance, intelligence, epistemic rationality, strategy, and knowledge, I think it is nonetheless akrasia resistance that holds me back the most.
I doubt there are many people on LessWrong who believe that the advantages of delusion in self-image outweigh the detriments. I am not one of them.
I’m actually really curious about who this is, because it is probably someone I know but I can’t think of who.
It’s Bryan. I’ve seen him at some DC meetups so you might know him. If not, he made contact information available to other Boston Megameetup attendees in the survey.
Are you thinking of Ken? You could ask him how he implemented that. He’s been valuable when I asked him for advice on other topics, and seems to enjoy helping people.
Thanks for the prod about trying to get this to work, by the way. I’ve been planning to once I get back to school, and having my shit together (to a much higher degree than for full time work) is basically a requirement (and one I’ve met in past school years, though summer makes me soft).
Nope.